Tired of Talking To Men

15 Mar

I am tired of talking about feminism to men.

I know that I’m not supposed to say this. I know that as a good little third-wave feminist I’m supposed to sweetly explain to you how much I love and value men. I’m supposed to trot out my husband of nearly five years, my son, all of my male friends and relatives and display them as a sort of badge of honour, proof that I am not a man-hater. I’m supposed to hold out my own open palms, prove to you how harmless I am, how nice I am. Above all, I’m supposed to butter you up, you men, stroke your egos, tell you how very important you are in the fight for equality. This is the right way to go about it, or so I’ve been told. As my mother would say, you catch more flies with honey.

But still. I’m tired of talking about feminism to men.

I’m tired of explaining to men that the feminist movement will, in fact, benefit them as well as women. I’m tired of trying to hawk gender equality like I’m some kind of car salesman showing off a shiny new sedan, explaining all of its bells and whistles. I’m tired of smiling through a thousand thoughtless microaggressions, tired of providing countless pieces of evidence, tired of being questioned on every. single. damn. thing. I’m tired of proving that microaggressions exist, tired of proving that I’m unfairly questioned and asked for proof. For a movement that’s centered around the advancement and empowerment of women, why do I feel like I’m supposed to spend so damn much of my time carefully considering how what I say and do will be taken  by men?

I’m tired of men who insert themselves into feminist spaces with claims of hurt feelings. I’m tired of men who somehow manage to make every issue about them. I’m tired of men like the one who recently stopped by a friend’s Facebook thread in order to call feminism “cunty,” then lecture the women involved for being too “hostile” in their responses to him. I’m tired of men telling me that my understanding of feminism and rape culture are wrong, as if these aren’t things that I have studied intensely. I’m tired of men who claim to be feminist allies, then abuse that position to their own advantage. I’m so fucking exhausted by the fact that I know that I will have to, at some point in this piece, mention that I understand that not all men are like that. I will have to note that some men are good allies. And all of those things are true! And all of you good allies get cookies! But honestly I’m tired of handing out cookies to people just because they’re being decent fucking human beings.

I spoke today on a panel about rape culture, and while the whole experience was fucking fantastic, I was totally disheartened by how many of the other presenters went out of their way to convince the men in the room that rape culture affected them, too. The phrase “rape culture isn’t a women’s issue, it’s a everyone’s issue,” kept coming up, and though I understand why it could be valuable to frame it that way, the rationale behind that makes me kind of sick. Because what we’re really saying is that if rape culture is understood to only be a woman’s issue, then it won’t be as important to men.

Rape culture is something that men should care about not because it might affect them, but because it affects anyone at all. Men should care about women’s safety, full stop, without having the concept somehow relate back to them. Everyone should care about everyone else’s well-being – that’s what good people are supposed to do.

Is it really so hard to have compassion about something that might not directly affect you?

I find that the more that I engage in activism, the more men seem to think that my time belongs to them. There seems to be this idea that if I’ve set myself up as an educator about feminism and gender and women’s rights (and I know that I have, and by and large I enjoy that role), then  it’s somehow part of my job to take the time out of my busy day to explain basic feminist concepts to them. If I don’t, then I’m accused of all kinds of things – not properly backing up what I say with facts (though the facts are easily accessible to those who want them), not caring enough about “converting” men who might be on the fence (though they could convert themselves if they really wanted to), not being strong or smart enough to engage in a discussion (which we both know isn’t going to go anywhere). I used to burn myself out by patiently laying out my talking points over and over, directing people towards resources, never walking away from an arguments be it big or small. But I’m not doing that to myself anymore. This is my space; I get to decide what happens here. If I don’t want to reply to comments, then I won’t. If I don’t want to engage someone, then I’ll ignore them. Yes, I am here to educate and to explain, but I am not under any obligation to do anything that I don’t want to. That is not my job. If you want to learn more, then that’s your job.

I’m going to call on all the men out there who consider themselves to be allies and ask them to step up to the plate and walk their own talk. When you see a woman being mansplained, you be the one to step in and call him out. When you see a bunch of men making misogynistic jokes, you be the one to tell them to fuck off. When someone asks for “proof,” don’t wait for a woman to provide it – you be the one to offer resources. Show us what a good ally you are by standing in the line of fire for once, and when you do, don’t immediately turn around and ask us for praise.

I’m tired of talking to men about feminism, but it doesn’t have to be like this. The burden of this discussion doesn’t have to be on women; we don’t have to be the only ones fighting the good fight. So please, men who are reading this – instead of the usual knee-jerk reaction towards these types of posts, instead of rolling your eyes and saying, “great, another feminist shitting on men,” I’m asking you to instead get involved and do what you can to affect change. I’m not going to condescend to you and try to explain why that will make the world a better place; I trust that you’re all smart enough to figure that out by yourselves.

This image came up when I googled "mansplain" and I'm just going to run with it.

This image came up when I googled “mansplain” and I’m just going to run with it. ETA: this is apparently Milan Greer, a sort of cat whisperer from the 50s. Apparently he was pretty rad and feminist so why someone tagged his picture as “mansplain” I’m not sure. WELL YOU LEARN SOMETHING EVERY DAY AM I RIGHT?


268 Responses to “Tired of Talking To Men”

  1. Tim Miller (@TimMiller2011) March 19, 2014 at 5:40 pm #

    As a man, after reading this will go kill myself immediately.

    • speakeasy25 March 24, 2014 at 12:13 am #

      That’s probably not overreacting at all. And definitely isn’t making it all about you. Good call.

  2. chrysaleki March 19, 2014 at 7:13 pm #

    Reblogged this on Mass Chrysteria and commented:

  3. John Anderson March 19, 2014 at 8:03 pm #

    Question, what if some guy said he was tired of hearing about it? I’ve heard that complaint from men before. This is the thousandth article I’ve read on it, etc. I get it men are bad.

    I’m not condemning you for the way you feel. It’s legitimate to feel tired. I’ve stopped linking stats to some of the comments I’ve made because I’ve linked them to so many that it is tiring. What I’m suggesting is take that feeling and remember it when you hear a comment from someone who feels they are being singled out or picked on.

    • chromanoid March 19, 2014 at 8:53 pm #

      There is a fundamental difference between communicating severe deficits in our society and people curling up in status quo. The former act for a better world, the latter act irresponsible.

      • karl March 20, 2014 at 7:41 am #

        Yes. I couldnt figure out why i was agitaited wheb i read this. Thank you for those poetic words.

  4. John Anderson March 19, 2014 at 8:23 pm #

    “I’m tired of men telling me that my understanding of feminism and rape culture are wrong”

    Your idea of rape culture is most probably wrong. There are some feminists that admit that rape culture does directly impact men (ie prison rape jokes). I’ve just convinced a feminist that the erasure of victims is also rape culture. So the FBI definition of rape, which ignores the vast majority of female perpetrated rapes and consequently the vast majority of the rapes of men since women are primarily the rapists of men, is an aspect of rape culture and according to the 2010 CDC NISVS an estimated 1,267,000 men were forced to penetrate with 79.2% of their abusers being women as compared to 1,270,000 women estimated to have been raped. Utilizing stats on this flawed definition of rape is supporting that definition and an aspect of rape culture. Yet, how many feminists will insist that only 1% of rapes are committed by women against men?

    RAINN has also come out suggesting that feminism’s traditional view of rape culture is wrong.

    Click to access WH-Task-Force-RAINN-Recommendations.pdf

    Some excerpts

    “This has led to an inclination to focus on particular segments of the student population (e.g., athletes), particular aspects of campus culture (e.g., the Greek system), or traits that are common in many millions of law-abiding Americans (e.g., “masculinity”), rather than on the subpopulation at fault: those who choose to commit rape. This trend has the paradoxical effect of making it harder to stop sexual violence, since it removes the focus from the individual at fault, and seemingly mitigates personal responsibility for his or her own actions.”

    “Again, this research supports the fact that more than 90% of college-age males do not, and are unlikely to ever, rape. In fact, we have found that they’re ready and eager to be engaged on these issues. It’s the other guys (and, sometimes, women) who are the problem.”

    “There is also insufficient research to know if one-size messages work, or if (and how) they should be tailored for audiences such as male or LGBT survivors or those with disabilities.”

    To put “rape culture” in perspective.

    • bellejarblog March 19, 2014 at 8:36 pm #

      Actually, nowhere did I say that rape culture doesn’t affect men – what I said was that we shouldn’t have to sell it as something that hurts men too in order for them to want to actively dismantle it.

      In fact, I’ve written about the ways that rape culture impacts men, but thanks for condescendingly explaining that to me and proving my point.


      • Micah April 3, 2014 at 3:30 pm #

        I picked up on his mansplanning too… Kind of ironic.

      • speakeasy25 April 3, 2014 at 8:30 pm #

        If “ironic” means “utterly predictable.”

      • Steve Corner April 20, 2014 at 11:58 pm #

        You’re tired of talking about feminism to men? Awesome, now I hope everyone else is tired of it too. It’s annoying to listen to.

    • Kris March 20, 2014 at 12:41 am #

      I googled the CDC report you reference as I could not believe your figures that an equal number of men and women have been raped. Here is what the executive summary says:

      ” Nearly 1 in 5 women (18.3%) and
      1 in 71 men (1.4%) in the United
      States have been raped at some
      time in their lives, including
      completed forced penetration,
      attempted forced penetration,
      or alcohol/drug facilitated
      completed penetration. ”

      In other words, the CDC report found that almost 20% of women report having been raped during their lifetime, whereas only 6% of men report the same.

      • Kris March 20, 2014 at 12:54 am #

        oops – *1.4% of men”

      • Egalitarian March 23, 2014 at 7:15 pm #

        The “1 in 71 men have been raped” stat from the CDC survey doesn’t tell the whole story. It defines “rape” as the attacker penetrating the victim, which excludes women who use their vagina to rape a man (rape by envelopment) which is counted as “made to penetrate”. The very same survey says “1 in 21 men (4.8%) reported that they were made to penetrate someone else,” which is far more than 1 in 71. Also, the study says that 79.2% of male victims of “made to penetrate” reported only female perpetrators, meaning they were raped by a woman.

        The above, lifetime stats do show a lower percentage of male victims (up to 1.4% rape by penetration + 4.8% made to penetrate = 6.2%) than female victims (18.3%) although it is far more than the 1 in 71 you stated. However, if you look at the report’s stats for the past 12 months, just as many number of men were “forced to penetrate” as women were raped, meaning that if you properly include “made to penetrate” in the definition of rape, men were raped as often as women.

      • L March 24, 2014 at 9:01 am #

        The thing is, those statistics are inherently bullshit.
        Annual rape statistics indicate a maximum percentage of rape victims of about 3%.

        The 18.3% are induced by women counting every single drunken sex event as a rape, as a result of the questions.

        But you cannot label drunken sex as rape, because it’s drunken sex, and most of the time, the drinking and the sex are wholly consensual.

        In other words, that statistic is intentionally wrong, unfair to rape victims, especially men who are represented as a minority when they are not.

    • JulesKD March 23, 2014 at 7:57 pm #


    • speakeasy25 March 23, 2014 at 10:39 pm #

      Jesus Effing Christ, go the f*** away, Anderson. Catch one half of one percent of one milligram of a clue about what is being said. And realize you are it. And go away. Or step the hell up.

      • paul blart March 24, 2014 at 5:43 pm #

        Are you the retard, or the fat girl in you profile pic?

    • Kyle March 25, 2014 at 3:06 pm #

      I am for the arguments in this piece, as a man – whatever that means in this context, and for which I am also tired of pointing out – but it’s little bit hard for me to make sense how you do it. I don’t want cookies, I don’t like them. Can’t give a crap about who thinks about what I am doing. And more importantly, why would you even feel the need of saying that “all men are not like that” ? Is it because what you are saying implies a derogatory insinuation? Can’t be right? Then, why the need of saying that you don’t care ’bout what you are not saying?

      I am only havin some argumentative bull-crap probably but I still find it something to think about.

      More importantly, yes people are morons, however this does not give an activist any right to surrender … Everyone have their own battle. If you are appealing to people who already fight the battle, then this piece is pointless, if the other group, then it’s still your battle as well.

      • AltoFronto September 28, 2014 at 6:08 pm #

        If you don’t care about gaining recognition, you wouldn’t draw attention to it by claiming you don’t care… but whatever.
        The OP doesn’t need to waste energy by thinking about it. And she doesn’t need to waste energy in having bad-faith discussions with men if they’re time-consuming and frustrating.

        Self-care is important. It’s not surrender in the least – it’s being assertive. Even the world’s greatest activist deserves to take some time off from, or refuse to give attention to morons. It’s impossible to be a great activist if you burn yourself out on the trivial stuff, and that’s exactly what those derailing, mansplainy non-feminist men want. To waste our time and energy.

  5. B March 19, 2014 at 9:39 pm #

    “instead of the usual knee-jerk reaction towards these types of posts, instead of rolling your eyes and saying, “great, another feminist shitting on men,” I’m asking you to instead get involved and do what you can to affect change.”

    Of everything, I just can’t agree with this statement. In context it feels as though any rebuttal that may be stated on this topic, you will label as a knee-jerk reaction. And the only acceptable response is to support your cause.

    If you make a claim, it must be discussed, not ‘here’s my claim, you’re annoying and I don’t wanna talk to you unless you join me’.

    But then again this is your pocket of the internet. You can say what you want.

    • speakeasy25 March 23, 2014 at 10:45 pm #

      No, it’s actually more like, “You are intentionally ignorant and I don’t want to keep engaging you while you pull your head out of your a**.” All of the information about feminism exists on the internet–how do you think WE find/know/research it? If you can’t be bothered to educate yourself without having it spoonfed to you, we shouldn’t have to constantly be aware of your baby bird needs. Exhausting.

      • Edward March 24, 2014 at 3:38 am #

        Even the opportunity to spoon feed should be respected if you have the ear of another. We needn’t be wrapped up in spoiled activists pushing issues they think are important but find that peoples own capacity for free thought leads them another way. That’s essentially whining about not having dictatorial control over others which is about power.

        You assume people haven’t educated themselves but I seriously doubt you’d stand a chance debating a opposing position from those who have for asserting :“You are intentionally ignorant and I don’t want to keep engaging you while you pull your head out of your a**.”

        I think a little more respect for dissent is in order considering how easy it is for your opponents to amass evidence for their claims.

      • L March 24, 2014 at 9:06 am #

        You poor thing.

        You do realize that rape culture and modern feminism is 100% ignorance based right ?

        You do realize nobody gives a shit about the delusions you are happy to perpetuate right ?

        Then be happy that people even listen to your bullshit when you come up with fucked up theories based on numbers you pulled out of your ass.

        Your beliefs are more far-fetched than the book of morons and scientology combined, don’t expect anyone to know about your inventions, because it’s indeed much better if they don’t.

      • paul blart March 24, 2014 at 5:46 pm #

        Oh, all the shit you have made up for yourselves is available online? I can also find people that think they are dragons born into human bodies. All their made up shit is on the internet too!

      • Muhammad September 17, 2014 at 6:34 pm #

        This is why nobody gives a shit about your cause. You get all testy and impatient when people come to you to ask you questions or learn.

      • Nobody September 25, 2014 at 7:22 pm #

        Oh, it’s on the internet, therefore it must be true and correct, therefore shut up.

  6. Adam March 19, 2014 at 10:12 pm #

    Hmm. Turns out I found this post pretty thought-provoking. Sorry bout that.
    I’m one of those men who does a lot of arguing on the behalf of feminism, and I know exactly what you mean about having to deal with constant bullshit questions. I used to do the exact same thing; whenever anybody tried to start an argument with me, even if they were clearly brain-dead idiots, I would patiently wade through it and take apart their argument one piece at a time, no matter how rude they were.
    But honestly, I can’t be bothered at this point. I still get into a lot of arguments, just because misogyny pisses me the fuck off, but I’m a lot more likely to just point out the more glaringly stupid things somebody said and dismiss everything else. It’s a lot easier to ask a shit-ton of vague, uneducated questions than to answer them. But you can generally read how open a person is to new ideas, so I think it’s best to pick your battles.
    But even then, I think for me I just typed “rape culture” into google one day, found a tumblr on the subject, and started reading. I wasn’t convinced at first, but I kept coming back and reading more, and eventually I had to admit that I couldn’t really argue with most of the things I was reading. And then at some point I couldn’t help myself and I started actually arguing from a feminist position (which felt totally bizarre at the time), and I’ve basically been a card-carrying feminist since. I didn’t need to have an argument with a feminist, I just had to realize that if I did, I would get my ass handed to me.
    And you’re right; no man should need to hear “aside from all this awful stuff that happens to women, patriarchy hurts you too!” to be moved. I for one was sold long before I heard any of that, and frankly I have a hard time picturing a guy for whom that was the deciding factor in re-thinking his ideology. I doubt he exists. Being a feminist requires empathy from just about everyone who subscribes to it; trying to make it appeal to selfishness is a lost cause.
    Basically, I think that feminism, by its very existence, will attract people with empathy and open-mindedness, so perhaps we’re better off trying to foster more of that in young people than we are beating are head against the wall of generally loathsome idiots who are set in their ways.

    • George Z March 20, 2014 at 9:12 pm #

      I love how feminists equate anti-feminism with misogyny. It’s like how being anti-nazi is being a German hater. So stupid

      • Adam March 21, 2014 at 1:06 am #

        It’s more like recognizing a really obvious pattern. When just about all the anti-feminists you ever talk to also turn out to be misogynistic assholes in general, and you’ve talked hundreds of these sorts of people, you get a bit sick of giving them the benefit of the doubt.

      • chromanoid March 21, 2014 at 10:04 am #

        It speaks for itself that humankind had to introduce a new word that means “against gender-based discrimination” (feminism). While racism describes a deficit, feminism anticipates the lack of a deficit. So being anti-feminist is indeed the same as being misanthropic and separatist.

      • chromanoid March 21, 2014 at 10:08 am #

        Addendum: Of course you are also at least irresponsible if not misanthropic when you are simply not a feminist.

        There are people who put this logic into more friendly words, maybe you can find truth there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hg3umXU_qWc

      • GeorgeZ April 2, 2014 at 10:31 am #

        Chromanoid, feminism may mean “against gender based discrimination” but in practice it is different. The Republican Party mean represent limited government, fiscal responsibility, and defense, but in practice it is different. It’s easy to live in words and theory.

        Adam, a lot of assholes are against feminism. That doesn’t mean that anyone who criticizes should be labeled an asshole. Maybe if you label the non-assholes as assholes, they will get defensive and respond like assholes. Now, you’ve created an experience which simple feeds a negative exaggerated reality.

    • L March 24, 2014 at 9:11 am #

      feminism is about empathy between women
      feminism is about brainwashing and power grab

      With an open-mind, you cannot accept statistics that combine rape and many other things under the word “rape”, you cannot accept theories about “workplace inequality” when women actually get paid more and get more board seats than they deserve, based on real education and work hours statistics.

      You’ve just been brainwashed by people who don’t even try to check their facts and numbers, and you would like to “educate” the rest of the world… I hope you do not succeed.

    • paul blart March 24, 2014 at 5:47 pm #

      HAHAHA, being a pussy wont get you laid dude. Points for trying so hard though.

      • bunkly March 26, 2014 at 3:19 pm #

        a sociopath is a person who lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience

  7. irpsit March 20, 2014 at 1:21 am #

    Great thinking. The fact is that there is great disarmony in most people in what regards relationships. Most people should value the relationship as a sacred thing, not just like “another relationship”. It’s a thing between two human beings, and one of the most special things one can experience.

    I sincerely do not know how to change others. I don’t even think its a desirable thing. So many around me lack tolerance and contribute to the war between men and women, but I really don’t think one can do much to change this.

    I can change only myself as a man, and I can only change my own relationships with other men and women, including my sweetie. It’s as simple as this.

    There is maybe a point in feminism beyond the emancipation of women. And that this one, the betterment of man-woman relationships, to make as beautiful thing out of it (this includes everything: relationships, commitment versus non-commitment, openess and honesty, communication, commitment and intimacy as well as freedom in love, sex and living together). Frankly, this should be the ultimate goal of feminism. If not, I don’t know what people really want.

    Ideology often kills the simplicity of things, and relationships. People will often have different perspective on things and often opposing views. This is natural.; let’s embrace this. Let’s be peaceful with this. Let’s soften the differences, because they should not be important. Its just like having blue or brown eyes, its just a detail.

    I think it’s beautiful that people see the beauty of both the male and female polarity in the world around us.

    Life is simple if one lives from the heart.

    • chromanoid March 21, 2014 at 11:47 am #

      Most Western nations engage even in war to stop discrimination in other countries, but there is an outcry of hypocrisy when it comes to status quo at home. Most Western nations have programs to stimulate economic success, there is investment into societal advancement, but this is obviously too scarce. I believe there is much room for top down approaches.

      • Edward March 24, 2014 at 3:55 am #

        Discrimination is far from the most pressing issues in Western Nations and when it does happen the most pressing matters are race rather than gender related. I say so because that’s where the larger disparities exists which can’t readily be dismissed as the sexes making their own personal choices such as the vast disparity between men and women in prisons. When this happens along racial lines we know that something else is going on, along with poverty, education, and other issues.

        I find those obsessed with gender as the central cause of oppression to be victims of their own self serving motives. Objectively speaking issues of class trump all else, followed by groups that are actually hated by the societies they live in. Neither women or men by virtue of their gender fall into that category but they may nonetheless experience injustice on account of being apart of their sex. It would make no more sense to call a society gender hating than we would call it human hating, because the sexes are innate to human existence. It’s the other distinctions that have fueled war, genocide,pogroms, and other efforts to purge society of some unwanted group. Neither men nor women will be one of these groups and historically if there was a gender purging (always motivated by some other identity) it was the men who’d be killed not the women. I’ll leave sex selective abortion out of this because to consider abortion murder would require we ban it.

        Feminism assumes gender is the most pressing issue of our day but I disagree. I think the fact men are and women are so attached to each other makes the claims of ubiquitous gender hate fairly disingenuous. It’s a most cynical view on human relations that seems to discount the least bit of good will or intention between people who naturally fall in love with each other and form families. The time for that kind of jarring cynicism has come and gone. Progress is going to demand a great deal more maturity and a less corruptible sense of fairness.

      • chromanoid March 24, 2014 at 3:04 pm #

        “Discrimination is far from the most pressing issues in Western Nations”
        It deserves definitely more attention, but enforced and self-regulated quotas are coming or are already established.

        The OECD’s program “Closing the Gender Gap Act Now!” says “Gender gaps are pervasive in all walks of economic life and imply large losses in terms of foregone productivity and living standards to the individuals concerned and the economy. […] Greater gender equality in educational attainment has a strong positive effect on economic growth; Stereotyping needs to be addressed in educational choices at school from a young age. […]”

        “I find those obsessed with gender as the central cause of oppression to be victims of their own self serving motives. [and the ugly rest.]”
        I disagree and just point you to the “Derailing For Dummies” guide to find more of those cool arguments: http://www.derailingfordummies.com/

  8. irpsit March 20, 2014 at 1:31 am #

    Another idea:

    I am rather tired of the patriachical society. A government, rules, the strongest lives, materialism, logic, emotions hidden, etc.

    I feel there is a lack of the female side of it. We need more the quality of caring amongst society and our relationship, listening, emotions expressed, receptiveness instead of only activism and forceful action. We need a society without so many bosses, without so much ideology, without so much science and logic, without so much determinism and hierarchy.

    We need a society centered around the mother and the baby, the ultimate feministic nature. The caring loving women which knows the emotion-rich world of sex and mothering, where the men can provide for it, but both sexes are balanced on it.

    Maybe I am just daydreaming a lot, but this is strongly what I foresee it is the ideal way for this world. We need a society that reinforces these qualities and not the same patriarchical qualities.

    • Bri March 20, 2014 at 3:29 am #

      But even the idea of a “female side of it” being caring, emotional, etc, is kind of outdated and sexist. Since when are only men logical and materialistic? Since when are only women caring and emotional? Challenge the roles and remember that they are just social constructions (more like socially constructed barriers).

      • George Z March 20, 2014 at 9:13 pm #

        Since women cared for children and men went out and provided for them. Then feminists came along and said, F* children. Now we can redefine gender roles, as children do not matter.

      • chromanoid March 21, 2014 at 11:51 am #

        @George: Instead of spilling vitriol, be creative and think of ways to have both. Actually, we can happily spend billions to find solutions.

      • speakeasy25 March 23, 2014 at 10:50 pm #

        Look, George, feminism is purely reactive in nature–if everyone (READ: Men) had played nice and fairly from the beginning, there would be no need for the movement. Don’t like feminism? Talk to the boys in charge.

      • Mau Palantír March 25, 2014 at 4:34 pm #

        George Z: Women in _all_ traditional societies „go out” too and provide – women tossed out of economy only exists since industrial revolution and workplaces incomplatible with children.

        Bri: The notion of women being such and such is sexist but the devaluation of traditionally „feminine” values and behaviors is also a form of patriarchical imbalance. I don’t think calling archetypes female or male is in all circumstances sexism.

      • Nobody September 25, 2014 at 7:29 pm #

        Oh right, and what kind of uncreated god is society? Has it not ever occurred to you that society is a reflection of biology? After all, it HAS to come from SOMEWHERE. Isn’t it just the least bit possible that societies are “constructed” the way they are because that is the most compatible, most complementary to our biology, form they can take? Do you really think the social world is just some geological feature we stumbled upon as we wandered formless and blank-slated through the dim prehistoric dawn?

    • netty March 24, 2014 at 4:52 am #

      This so-called “patriarchy” is a boogeyman invented by feminists for the purpose of scapegoating men.

      • Lin March 27, 2014 at 8:32 pm #

        No, actually, patriarchy was INVENTED to disenfranchise women!! I think this article makes some very valid points!

      • GeorgeZ April 2, 2014 at 10:22 am #

        Patriarchy is an issue, but the way feminist emphasize it is like governments emphasize terrorism to justify wars.

  9. verdantsamuel March 20, 2014 at 2:25 am #

    Reblogged this on Verdant Handshake and commented:
    Useful for those of us who identify as men.

  10. Bri March 20, 2014 at 3:27 am #

    Great post, but saying rape culture isn’t a ‘women’s issue’ isn’t a bad thing in my opinion, it should be said more often (I’m thinking of folks across the gender spectrum who’ve been affected by rape culture when I say this). I also wish it were more emphasized that sexual violence is not something that only occurs between men and women (this happens in queer communities too), but that’s a different conversation. THANK YOU for saying what I’ve been feeling for a long time. This is also how I feel when trying to explain systemic racism to people who aren’t even aware of their own privilege, but again, another conversation…kind of.

  11. Holly March 20, 2014 at 4:58 am #

    Thank you for writing this!

  12. teamsmirl March 20, 2014 at 8:05 am #

    Thank you for that. Reading the comments is always oh so depressing but your post is exactly what I needed this week.

  13. goodrumo March 20, 2014 at 12:34 pm #

    Reblogged this on iheariseeilearn.

  14. George Z March 20, 2014 at 9:09 pm #

    We’d appreciate if you stop talking about feminism, too. I’m interested in discussions, not where feminists pretend to give a fuck about men to win over their favor. Feminism is not good for men. It’s not good for anyone.

    • chromanoid March 21, 2014 at 11:55 am #

      I disagree with you and I am happy I don’t belong to your separatist club.

    • speakeasy25 March 23, 2014 at 10:54 pm #

      Want feminism to go away? Fine–we’d actually LOOOOOOOOVE to have that happen. Just make sure we achieve equity as a culture, and VOILA! no more feminism. Just like that. Get together with your buddies and have a little brainstorming session tonight, George, and get right on that, will ya? That’d be great.

      • netty March 24, 2014 at 4:48 am #

        How are your rights being violated as a woman in this society? Please give us a list of rights women are being denied.

      • L March 24, 2014 at 9:18 am #

        So we have to make a masculinist movement, get men as much rights as women, make sure women get all the criticism they deserve but don’t get in the current iteration of society, get rid of chivalry, combat the protector instinct of males, and then you will dissolve your selfish movement that only serves the interests of credit card companies and shopping malls ?

        Sure, we’ll get right on that …

      • GeorgeZ April 2, 2014 at 10:37 am #

        Great discussion skills speakeasy.

      • Muhammad September 17, 2014 at 6:36 pm #

        Tell me what a woman living in Western society can’t do that a man can.

    • Bri September 14, 2014 at 4:27 am #

      Then why, oh why, are you spending so much of your time trolling this topic???

  15. Sam March 20, 2014 at 9:14 pm #

    I cannot ignore a call to action so here I am, joining the conversation.
    When you say, “Everyone should care about everyone else’s well-being – that’s what good people are supposed to do.” That whole “being a good person thing” is the core value that most social progression manifests as. But it’s even better than that . Being a good person, welcoming the joining of two groups as one, benefit everyone. It would be nice to sight race relations here but I don’t really think we are there yet. So instead over time Catholics and protestants and Jews and Lutherans all came together to form a more powerful well rounded society. And before you jump on me for sighting a very limited group, as far as a whole bunch of labels are concerned. Just know I believe history as a whole shows us that society only moves in baby steps
    However, when you denounce the idea that “rape culture is an everyone issue” as a phrase that plays well with men because they have some sort of empathy issue and that “what we’re really saying is that if rape culture is understood to only be a woman’s issue, then it won’t be as important to men.” You sell yourself short. You sell women short. You sell men short.
    Society is shaped by everyone that plays a role in it. Men, women, gender neutral, everyone. By admitting that rape culture is a culture created not just by men by but women as well. By mothers and fathers who are hopefully carefully chosen husbands and wives by aunts and uncles and boys and girls. By the conversation we are having as consumers of goods and media and culture, by both the men and women within the system. By each voice that makes up the 100%.
    I am male, maybe a man, and unequivocal this label is part of me, part of my culture., part of my identity. As a man I know that rape culture is everyone’s problem. Maybe all my role models gave me this knowledge. But maybe you should help empower everyone to be the solution, draw a little energy from them, and maybe you won’t be so tired. Maybe it’s a positive label, identifying rape culture and all culture for that matter, as everyone’s issue.
    But than again I love your call to action, for us dudes to share the load a bit. It’s hard to step up as voice of reason, personally. I have a hard time putting myself in your shoes. I don’t think I’m alone. Maybe it is from lack of effort or maybe from simple lack of ability. You say you don’t owe those men anything but humans are too proud to be willfully ignorant (I hope with a little faith).
    And finally when you say that you are not “under any obligation to do anything that I don’t want to,” I wonder why you are a feminist. I am myself because I think sharing power equally between men and women is good for the whole (and therefore little old Darwanistic me).
    I challenge you right back. You are obligated, we all are, to keep pushing forward. As part of our collective genetic and cultural conscientiousness you have an obligation to everyone, to do the right thing. To be nice to those who are ignorant, to respect them as people with rights to opinions and to strategically change their minds for the good.

  16. David March 21, 2014 at 4:03 pm #

    I’d be tired also … totally reasonable … having to repeatedly qualify everything you say is a pain… men should take responsibility for their own bullshit … good read

    • Edward March 24, 2014 at 3:33 am #

      You assume the people complaining aren’t themselves reasonable if not more so. You can’t complain that the other sex wants in on gender equality while claiming to fight for gender equality and still be a credible advocate gender equality. If a activists wants things for women then they should drop equality as their primary motive, and instead refer to the welfare of women as their central concern. Equality between two proportional groups born of the same homes requires input from both. It’s more like relations between siblings than between rival tribes. For far too long the stance of us ‘women’ against them ‘men’ has obscured objective consideration of gender issue. The push back in this area is needed and overdue if feminism is to live up to the ideals it claims to stand for.

      • chromanoid March 24, 2014 at 3:32 pm #

        Pure nonsense.

  17. paintlifepeachy March 22, 2014 at 3:35 pm #

    Thank-you for posting this. Unfortunately after reading some of these comments it’s apparent some just don’t fucking get it.

  18. Tempo March 23, 2014 at 12:10 am #

    Working with the theme here: I’m tired of people being tired of needing “proof” (as you said, “when someone asks for ‘proof’, don’t wait for a woman to provide it – you be the one to offer resources”)

    For a political theory to be successful, you need to offer proof and argument; can you imagine John Rawls writing “A Theory of Justice” in 10 pages? He could have done it, but he needed those other 600 pages to PROVE his line of thought.

    Even if I agree with a conclusion, I want proof of the matter. So, if you want to succeed, you need to prove your point. Sorry if you’re tired of that; but that’s the price to pay for having beliefs.

    • chromanoid March 23, 2014 at 11:22 am #

      There is more than enough proof. People who discuss physics don’t have to provide proof every time they say something. Just the new stuff has to be proven. Gender-based discrimination is definitely not a new thing. There are hard numbers and laws that provide even physical evidence. Why do you think there is the “United Nations Entity for Gender Equality and the Empowerment of Women”?

      People who constantly ask for proof just discriminate and derail the discussion. People who argument against feminism have to provide proof, real scientific proof that nobody can question.

      • Bean March 23, 2014 at 4:33 pm #

        Entirely aside from the point of gender equality, proving that discrimination doesn’t exist cannot happen. There should be a threshold in proving how much discrimination is too much… To the benefit, and burden, of the feminist cause is that level of discrimination has been established through obvious biases in the workplace, sexual assault, and rape predominantly against women.
        These problems though far from being remedied are on the mend. The road to equality is long, but one that most agree with. They may not agree with feminism, but they do agree with equality, which may seem like a problem, but I assure it is not when you consider the preposterous notion of one philosophy holding a moral monopolization on equality.

      • chromanoid March 23, 2014 at 6:15 pm #

        People can give feminism other names, if they want to. But to me those people just don’t want to honor the cultural and historical aspects of the ideas that are being promoted. This makes me wonder if those people are able to be good allies. Of course the motto is “take as much as you can”, still, it leaves a bad taste.

      • Edward March 24, 2014 at 3:11 am #

        ” Why do you think there is the “United Nations Entity for Gender Equality and the Empowerment of Women”?”

        That says nothing about the status of women in the Western world which have been equal for quite some time now despite their personal choices creating some disparities between them and men. Things go wrong when you assume the sexes would do the exact same things if the society were restructured to meet some feminists ideal that is in reality a series of ever moving goal post exploited to favor the interest of women rather than parity as a whole. If we have a culture of such stark gender bias then it would have to be addressed from more perspectives than supplied by a never ending list of what women want from men.

        I can prove gender discrimination both ways using statistics and laws. Women don’t have a special case nor do they appear particularly powerless in getting their (feminists)agenda pushed to the forefront. The same can’t be said for struggling minority groups no matter how intersectional feminists claim themselves to be, because those setting agenda are most likely the same group that would be deemed blinded by privileged if racial issues were given equal status.

        This idealistic notion that addressing the issues of one sex will cure all ills is as absurd as assuming addressing the needs of white women will solve the problems of all others.

      • chromanoid March 24, 2014 at 3:19 pm #

        I am very curious about your proof. Please write it up and post a link. But be aware, I want an argumentation that is acknowledged in the scientific community.

        I only know of extensive evidence, that discrimination exists on a multiplicity of levels. As already stated, to see this evidence you can start by looking at this http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/9789264179370-en. You might also want to look at this http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~hebl//Mikki_Hebl/Publications.html. You might want to use Google Scholar, CiteSeerX and other scientific publication search engines to find publications that question the findings of the OECD or Prof. Hebl and her peers. Of course there are thousands of other sources you can find, that will all present evidence how discrimination and especially gender-based discrimination are inbred in our culture.

    • chromanoid March 23, 2014 at 11:53 am #

      Addendum, just a little casual proof for you: http://dx.doi.org/10.1787/9789264179370-en (this stuff probably only pokes the omnipresent discrimination).
      And to let you know how discrimination works in modern times, a casual talks made by a scientist: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkbzQpmNrlk You can probably receive more detailed reports about the studies by browsing this list: http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~hebl//Mikki_Hebl/Publications.html:

  19. chromanoid March 23, 2014 at 11:26 am #

    It’s really crazy that even in the comments people seem to fanatically work off the “Derailing for Dummies” guide (http://www.derailingfordummies.com/).

    • paul blart March 24, 2014 at 5:42 pm #

      Derailing = You don’t agree with me so shut up. I have no room for anyone else’s opinions but my own.

      • chromanoid March 24, 2014 at 10:01 pm #

        Nope, you probably mistake derailing for arguing, because you are not able to lead a normal discussion.

  20. Kate March 23, 2014 at 4:26 pm #

    I’m sorry, but if you are trying to challenge an existing social structure (patriarchal society), then you have to understand that you will have to explain things to people.

    What you are selling is right and people should intuit equality. Alas, inequality is THE NORM. And that sucks. But since you’ve chosen to change that (and good on ya!), you have to realize your voice is the minority and it will take a lot of work. Stop complaining that feminism is hard. Please.

    • chromanoid March 23, 2014 at 5:32 pm #

      Complaining is totally valid, especially in this case. Feminism should not be hard.The fact that it is is worth a billion complains. Beside this it is a very humane way to get relief from anger and exhaustion.

    • speakeasy25 March 23, 2014 at 10:58 pm #

      She’s not complaining feminism is hard–she’s stating that she is done with the laziness. And those are very different. It’s like if she was a personal trainer working with someone who refused to work out or lift weights but just kept asking for more proof those things would work. And then complained when the trainer told them nothing would work without their own effort. Eventually, if someone isn’t going to put in the effort themselves, you walk away and direct your efforts to others who will.

  21. Expatfeminist March 23, 2014 at 7:24 pm #

    Well gosh, you’ve hit a nerve here!

    As a second generation feminist (I think the term ‘equalitist’ is just as problematic … whatever happened to plain old ‘mutual respect’?) currently working in a country that is 127th out of 136 countries in The Global Gender Gap Report 2013 (you’ll have to Google that!) I am delighted to have learned something new. I now know that what I come across is called ‘mansplaining’ and ‘microaggression’ (actually it’s pretty ‘macro’, I think!). Certainly language and the problem of articulating ‘transgressive/subversive views’ has always been a key part of feminism and many other ‘isms’.

    I came to this blog from a FB post and there I put this comment:
    “Today I dared to ‘confront’ some male British ‘colleagues’ about their aggression and hostility towards me by saying to them that I have always been of the opinion that ‘men are people too’, so before they start arguing unnecessarily with me they should examine their own assumptions and prejudices!!!! And you know what? I think it worked!!!” So I hope it is of some comfort for you all to know that eventually (after 35 years of patient explaining/ femplaining/ strident haranguing … basically whatever it takes!) one can work WITH men for change 🙂

    The comments are especially well worth reading and have given some men the opportunity to ‘deal with their own’ …. we women still have much to do to encourage ‘sisterhood’ (I know, call me old fashioned ….!).

    I haven’t yet read it but I have noticed a FB post about new Belgian laws surrounding use of language and it will be interesting to see whether their debate(s) have positive results. An of course, it’s not just what’s being said it’s the way that it’s said so keep trying to ‘find the right tone’ …… which obviously depends on the circumstances …. so next time I am met with microaggression and mansplaining I will focus on that because we all know that it is frustrating, futile and exhausting to try to have a constructive conversation/discussion when the tone is hostile. Perhaps this will achieve a greater degree of mutual respect?

    Keep going … never give up! We all can only gain from exchanging views 🙂

    • Edward March 24, 2014 at 3:21 am #

      You must be talking about the Belgium laws criminalizing gender slurs and sexual references to fight street harassment. I find it Orwellian and extreme. The fact women can lobby to get something doesn’t need it’s needed or desirable. It’s not hard to emotionally manipulate men and women into granting demands for such things once moral panic has been fed to the populace for long enough. That said I’m happy it’s gender neutral and I hope feminists understand much of the language they use to deride men may very well be criminalized.

      “According to the new law, sexual harassment includes making “a gesture or statement that is clearly intended to express contempt for one or more people of a different gender on the basis of their gender or to make them appear inferior or reduce them to their sexual dimension in a way that constitutes a serious attack on their dignity”.”


      You can imagine how much trouble feminists could get in with a law like this. If expressing contempt for men were illegal then tumblr would be be a massive criminal enterprise. Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.

      • chromanoid March 24, 2014 at 3:37 pm #

        I am very happy about such laws and will support them with my vote as much as I can. It’s for the people. Even if the laws work out as intended every law with such an intent is worth a try.

  22. Jessica Nabors March 23, 2014 at 7:56 pm #

    The Problem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H4zSRkBMPng

  23. JulesKD March 23, 2014 at 8:00 pm #

    Lewis’s Law: the comments in a post about feminism justify feminism. The mansplaining in these comments is pretty epic.

    • Edward March 24, 2014 at 3:28 am #

      Men are allowed to have opinions that are not supplied by feminists, as are women. I find the term ‘mansplaining’ to be a blatant gender slur from people who should know a lot better. Advancing negative stereotypes to silence others who speak against your views is itself an act of sexist gender policing. I was most surprised when a feminists told me I was mansplaining in a discussion of black racial issues, I rather hypocritically accused her of ‘whitesplaining’. You see the whole enterprise of slurring those who dissent can go not just both ways, but all ways. Men could express contempt for women by advancing negative stereotypes about them, and many do.

      Feminism should be rising above that but instead we find it creeping into immaturity and pettiness in a desperate effort to protect power, status, and privilege within the context of our collective conversation on gender. Those who have been marginalized in that conversation (men) need respect not contempt when they come forward with their under addressed gender issues. That’s the only way you’ll ever have feminism for everyone but instead a feminism that reduces men to the status of ‘allies’ without a respected independent voice. You can’t have a true gender equality movement if the movement itself is structured to be sexist.

      • chromanoid March 24, 2014 at 3:41 pm #

        “But That Happens To Me Too!” check
        “Who Wins Gold in the Oppression Olympics?” check
        “You Are Damaging Your Cause By Being Angry” check
        “You’re Being Hostile” check
        … and on …

      • speakeasy25 March 24, 2014 at 4:31 pm #

        It’s like one guy just keeps posting on every single comments thread ever and using different names, right? Not even the tides are as predictable.

      • Expatfeminist March 25, 2014 at 10:08 am #

        @ Edward …. you really just don’t get it, do you?! LOL “reduces men ….. without a respected independent voice” – are you serious?!?!?! It sounds to me as if traditional ‘patriarchy’ represents your ‘voice’ quite adequately! Do please read and comment on the first part of my post …. I’m trying here to have a ‘historical’ perspective and to show that despite the difficulties we all (clearly) have in discussing these issues … there is movement and the conversation/discussion/debate goes on ….

    • chromanoid March 24, 2014 at 4:04 pm #

      @JulesKD: Is this the normal way of how the things go on? Even in feminist blog comment sections? That is horrible. I just recently tapped more into this blogosphere (found this blog via http://feministing.com/) and I am pretty shocked. I come from the game development community and just thought the misanthropy there would stem from the cultural and historical aspects of the medium.

      • chromanoid March 24, 2014 at 4:16 pm #

        “I come from the game development community and just thought the misanthropy there would stem from the cultural and historical aspects of the medium.”
        I mean a misanthropy I perceived as very vocal and special to the games community. I guess I was pretty wrong with this perception -.-.

  24. Crystal March 23, 2014 at 11:28 pm #

    Thank you. I feel the same, but you say it more eloquently.

  25. netty March 24, 2014 at 4:17 am #

    Quite frankly nobody cares that you’re tired of having to defend feminism to men. People are starting to see feminism for what it really is, a rotten ideology that has caused enormous harm to society. You’re wasting your time trying to put a positive spin on it. You can put lipstick on a pig but it’s still a pig.

    • speakeasy25 March 24, 2014 at 4:37 pm #

      Feminism is reactive–so, there IS a pig in this context, but it ain’t feminism.

  26. Alex Reynard (@Alex_Reynard) March 24, 2014 at 4:29 am #

    “I’m tired of explaining to men that the feminist movement will, in fact, benefit them as well as women.”


    • Expatfeminist March 26, 2014 at 5:30 pm #

      We’d all like to know when humanity will stop behaving so badly towards each other and the planet we live on, Alex Reynard!!!! 🙂

  27. Nick March 24, 2014 at 8:23 am #

    I am a MRA and I find this article disgusting!

    • Expatfeminist March 26, 2014 at 5:28 pm #

      Nick, please say more about why you ‘find this article disgusting!’. We are all here to learn and I, for one, am interested in your perspective.

      • speakeasy25 March 26, 2014 at 11:10 pm #

        Expat is just being nice, Nick. We really could give a sh** what you think.

  28. Perr March 24, 2014 at 9:07 am #

    Hey! Great article. The picture is tagged “mansplain” because it’s a creative commons image used in a satirical article about mansplaining that I wrote for Reductress. I actually wasn’t aware of Milan Greer’s identity, only that it was an image of a stern man clutching a kitty. Sheddin’ light!

    • bellejarblog March 24, 2014 at 1:54 pm #

      AMAZING. I feel like we are all learning so much! Also this picture is the best. It just makes me so stupidly happy. STERN MAN WITH CAT – how does that not melt your heart?

  29. Levi March 24, 2014 at 2:22 pm #

    And we are tired of hearing you.

    It seems there is an easy solution to both of our problems.

  30. kait March 24, 2014 at 5:06 pm #

    I am very sorry about the comments you are receiving for this piece. Solidarity.

  31. paul blart March 24, 2014 at 5:32 pm #

    Write another long, stupid blog piece when your husband finally gets sick of your shit and leaves you.

  32. MB Tankersley March 24, 2014 at 9:17 pm #

    Right on. This “ally” is with you, & will always do his best to walk the talk.

  33. Expatfeminist March 25, 2014 at 10:18 am #

    The comments section is becoming as interesting as your original blog! Splendid 🙂

    It does seem that women in general relate to what you’re saying. Yes, I do mean ‘women in general’ … I have forwarded this link to several women friends and I thought that one response I received is worth posting here. My colleague wrote: “I love reading what goes on inside my head written by someone else!”

  34. darthellen March 25, 2014 at 11:06 am #

    Reblogged this on Writings From Wymark.

  35. moelac March 25, 2014 at 9:16 pm #

    This was a great post. I’m so sorry you have to deal with these commenters. Just glancing through the comments was awful. Thank you for your work!

  36. Tiger Lilly March 26, 2014 at 5:33 am #

    Just read your piece, and I found it thought provoking. So forgive me for this really long post, but I think your post raises a lot of good points. I’m a woman and a stranger r**e survivor, just so you know where I am coming from.

    I hear you that you are tired of trying to get some men to understand where you are coming from and I can relate. I’m not here to defend “men”. Men are individuals. Some of them are dense assholes and some are not. Male culture on the other hand is IMO a steaming pile of dog shit and has caused a lot of damage in the world. Male culture is what breeds violent p*rn, street harassment, sexual assault, and general male entitlement. It is also what makes men defensive about feminism and women in general.

    As a quick digression, I personally hate the term r**e culture, and I think it’s offensive and triggering to survivors – I prefer the word sexual assault because too many bloggers are making “click cash” off the term r**e because it shows up in google trends and that is shitty. In this way people are literally making money off r**e victims and I think that the “click cash” incentivizes people to use the term “r**e culture” in their headlines purely for money and “outrage clicks” and that overrides any good brought about by the term.

    Anyhow, the online debates around feminism and gender wars etc. have become exceedingly contentious as of late and I have a few theories as to why we feminists are having a hard time getting “men” on board. One of the problems is that many men frankly cannot put themselves into women’s shoes for whatever reason, and online anonymity allows them to be aggressive towards women in a way that would get them in trouble in “real life”. I also think some of this has to do with people not praising empathy in boys, and that a lot of male sex education comes from p*rn.

    In my lived experience I’ve found that many men have little clue about women and that they generally resent being expected to try to relate to them. Instead they just look for women who will parrot their worldview and then look at women who challenge it as outliers when the truth is that the “outliers” are the majority. This is why when women complain about being badgered for sex or sexually harassed, many men will say “but so-and so- LOVES sex” or “many women enjoy being complemented by strangers” as a way to try to shame women and make them feel like prudes, when the truth is that women simply have more to risk by engaging in sexual activity, or engaging with strangers than men do. In this way I’m not slut shaming or prude shaming but trying to say that men often project their own (oversexed, entitled) worldview on women and then get mad when certain women don’t conform.

    Still, like I said the debates online are extremely contentious, and I think it is sad how much shit slinging goes on between “men” and “feminists” in comments sections and on forums. There are a couple of things that I think contribute to this. One of the things that I see a lot of in today’s internet activism is a lack of acknowledgement that many feminist arguments arise from academia – published papers etc.

    The problem is, many people on the internet are not college educated, so when people use terms like “microagressions” it just sounds snooty and overly sensitive to them. In other words, it’s out of context. (Please don’t take this personally. I’m not knocking you – just making an example from some things you mention.) And often I have seen some online academics try to ram academic terminology down someone’s throat and then get condescending and say “it’s not my job to educate you”. The problem is, if the person doesn’t want to be educated and another person is both admonishing them for not being educated AND saying that it’s a waste of their time to try to educate them, then that person is unlikely to go seek out that information on their own AND likely to have a poor view of the next person who claims to be in the same category.

    I have a couple of degrees, but I understand that not everyone values university education and that many people frankly don’t want to be “educated” in postmodernist feminist thought. It’s like when someone has a cause like vegetarianism or veganism – those who are “in the movement” have a lingo or jargon. So when someone tells me they are piscatarian, and I ask them to explain it to me and they say – “Meat is murder! It’s not my job to educate you!” I’m going to chuckle inside and walk away thinking “man, vegetarians are cray-zay” and probably avoid getting into another debate/conversation with them.

    So basically I think it is better to focus on common ideals a la humanism, than to fight an endless WAR to try to get “men” to embrace “feminism” (which is a loaded term in society whether people like it or not). Claiming that there is a “r**e culture” and that all men are potential r*pists will only make men look for ways to discredit your argument and makes “men” less receptive to fighting r*pe because it is being framed as an “us vs. them” fight.

    I think that the problems surrounding sexual assault are not going to be tackled by having blog/comment wars or feminist/mra shit slinging matches and I believe that the nasty attitudes on both sides are hurting the dialog in general, and make people LESS sympathetic to victims in particular. Now a man who might have listened, will rather embrace skewed statistics about false r*pe because he thinks he is fighting some internet war over his manhood with so-called “mean” feminists online.

    I’m not saying feminists should be nice to men, but rather that men are not going to embrace feminism when it’s presented as something they need to be beat over the head with. No one likes to be called “ignorant” and saying someone “needs to be educated” has the same repellent effect.

    A better question than, “Why are “men” pro-r*pe? is “Why do District Attys in many major cities “decline to prosecute” up to 75% of sexual assault cases?”. The solutions to so-called “r*pe culture” are in overhauling the court system and holding D.A. accountable for failure to prosecute, not in endless, contentious blog wars.

    Most men are not rapists, and the ones that are will never care about women or feminism. Men don’t accidentally r*pe, it’s a conscious act. I do understand that “r*pe culture” condemns violent p*rn and the generally shitty attitudes about sexual assault that are part of culture and that’s obviously valid. I do think, however, that the term is overly inflammatory and gets in the way of the message, which is (hopefully) trying to get people to be more sympathetic and knowledgeable about the prevalence of sexual assault.

    All this internet back and forth just fuels the fire and makes men who might otherwise be sympathetic defensive and shuts down dialog. And that hurts sexual assault victims who become nothing more than flame war fodder and “click cash” generators. Just my opinion.

    • Expatfeminist March 26, 2014 at 5:25 pm #

      Well said, Tiger Lilly – an interesting and thought-provoking contribution. Thank you!

    • GeorgeZ April 2, 2014 at 10:20 am #

      Thank you for this. You make excellent points.

      You mentioned that men have a hard time putting themselves in the shoes of women and on top of that they’re not encouraged to be empathetic. This is true and I hope to see this change with time.

      Firstly, I want to point out it’s hard for anyone to put themselves in the shoes of someone from a completely different walk of life and I feel gender is one of those things. I feel it’s a value that has to be fostered.

      Secondly, an analogous pattern is that many “feminists” don’t put themselves in the shoes of men, nor are they encouraged to do so. While understandable, it’s particularly bothersome because at the same time they demand men understand their point of view.

      Again, I appreciated your contribution to this discussion.

  37. Abolissimo March 26, 2014 at 1:42 pm #

    This hateful male opposition to your excellent think piece certainly makes its points.

    • Expatfeminist March 26, 2014 at 5:25 pm #

      I soooo agree!

  38. J.C March 26, 2014 at 2:34 pm #

    I agree with all of this so much. Thank you for writing this.

  39. D March 28, 2014 at 8:43 pm #

    Actually, if you want people to take your views seriously, and especially if you want to try to sway them to your point of view, you really do need to take the time to present good arguments for your position. As much as you might think that your position is obvious, the very existence of many men who hold misogynistic views provides evidence to the contrary. They really do think that their position is correct and they believe that they have good evidence and arguments for it. They aren’t all just complete morons who know they are wrong but still keep being misogynists anyway.

    The primary weapon against patriarchy is using education to sway the minds of those who still believe in patriarchy in some way. Many men (and women) need to be swayed by careful explanation and argument if we are to see any change. Sure, this isn’t necessarily your moral obligation, but if you claim to be a supporter of feminism then it is your duty (along with other, including men) to change the way the misogynists think.

    On a more general note, all beliefs ought to justified/warranted by good reason and argument. If you aren’t trying to sway anybody then you can keep your justifications for your beliefs to yourself, but if you are then you need to explain yourself. It comes with the territory of trying to change people’s minds. You can’t fix the problem by preaching to the choir; you need to convince the people who you believe to be wrongheaded to consider and ultimately embrace your point of view. You also have to be open to other people’s points of view so you can understand them and know how to change their mind (or perhaps have your own mind changed if they make a really good argument).

    So while I understand your frustration (I have many views that I am tired of arguing to people as to me they are obvious) I don’t think that the answer is turning your back. I think your call to others to assist you is fair, but in my experience most people who hold feminist views (men included) already do carry that torch.

  40. thepatriotdad March 30, 2014 at 2:07 pm #

    You are so cute when you attempt to defend the feminist elites and their well documented myths, misdirections and outright fabrications of convenience.

    Thank you for this article. These emotive and illogical presentations from a Narcissistic perspective do more to assist in creating a gender dialogue that is steadily overcoming the misandry induced by feminist monologue than anything else you could do. Thanks, again, for helping to advance the concept of a return of rights and due process for men in the face of extreme special rights and entitlements for women.

    We can ask for nothing better than the self-exposure of feminists and their dupes by their rants.

    You go girl!

    • speakeasy25 March 30, 2014 at 4:41 pm #

      Threatened much?

      • GeorgeZ April 2, 2014 at 9:56 am #

        Lol why do you think he’s threatened? Because he disagreed?

  41. impervious.lee March 30, 2014 at 9:09 pm #

    Reblogged this on msmindylee and commented:
    This has been pretty real for me lately.

  42. Amy April 4, 2014 at 1:20 pm #

    I’ve read a lot of these responses and most of them seem to be arguing over feminism *yawn* what I’m most interested in recently is the rape culture we have not just in the west but across the globe. I’m from the UK and I was abused for several years as I child and was raped when I was 15. I know of several friends who have been raped by people they know, and there are probably more that I don’t know about! But because they were drunk and know just how awkward it would be to go to the police knowing you are in danger of being ostracised from a social group, especially if the man has a ‘good’ social standing, these crimes go un reported. I know myself and friends also feel so much shame associated to being the victim of rape, how fucking weird is that! I still don’t fully understand it! I’ve sadly heard some people state that women label every drunken shag as rape, which it just NOT true! My friends and I are young and sexually liberated and have no hang ups about drunken hook ups as long as we have CONSENTED to that activity. Anyone who has been raped will tell you there is no ambiguity between rape and a consenting sexual activity. Just take my word for it! I have worked in rape clinics (every town in the UK has one) and they are in constant use, which demonstrates that this IS a real problem, at least to the victims, perpetrator and their families if we are unable to empathise with all human beings unless we have some direct contact with them. I have a friend (man) who was raped by someone they knew (man) and subsequently became a drug addict and tried to kill himself. He is now a happy, fulfilled person who has been clean for 2 years and works full time after expensive treatment on the NHS. If he had carried on using for had killed himself we as a society would have lost a valued tax payer so this issue really does have wider implications. It’s strange that it is ok to talk openly about so many injustices in the world but rape and child abuse are still very taboo even in the lefty, forward thinking households. Is it because we are scared to confront the issue? Do men ( before you get on your high horse of course I know that women commit these crimes too, I’m still trying to get my head around forced penetration as would that not require arousal? I’ve tried this with a consenting partner and it was impossible but I’m sure it has and does happen! I think most women’s crime is being complicit to abuse. Let’s face it the figures are skewed) think that by admitting there is a problem that needs addressing and that women aren’t all crying wolf that it implies they are somehow guilty? Otherwise why be so defensive and combative? I’m white and outraged by racism and can speak openly about it. I in no way feel the need to dismiss issues faced by ethnic minorities as them being a bit sensitive, manipulating and power hungry. We need to be more honest and with ourselves and each other’s. If we are not that genetically different from a banana how can we inflict such distance between sexes!

  43. hijackthemic April 5, 2014 at 12:34 am #

    Yeah, well I go for a different take. Instead asking others to join in banging your head against the wall under the belief that’ll make it less painful, take a lesson from real feminism, appreciate your agency as a human being, and go get a life.

  44. Simeon Morris April 5, 2014 at 11:03 pm #

    I love the guys who read your blog, don’t even bother to ATTEMPT to understand what you are trying to say, then immediately start doing the VERY thing you were complaining about having to deal with, and think they are being original, clever and offering a cohesive, intelligent and well considered response. Seriously?! MRA idiots and mansplainers. Did you not read what she wrote?

    All you are doing is revealing your complete idiocy. Are you not even a tiny bit embarrassed? I would be if I were you.

  45. Nathan April 9, 2014 at 3:47 pm #

    Do guys actually search the internet to find posts like this to hate on? I just can’t believe some of these responses. Guys if you hate on someone for promoting something you might have a problem. No where in this article does it say that men are horrible. The article is simply asking guys to step up if they see something happening.


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