TW for violence against women, misogynistic language, violent language, talk of rape
Last night, a 22 year old man named Elliot Rodger killed six people and injured seven more in what most news outlets are describing as a “shooting rampage.” Rodger died later that night from a gunshot wound to his head, though it’s still unclear as to whether or not it was self-inflicted or from responding deputies shooting back after he opened fire on them.
Almost everything I’ve read about him has referred to him as a “madman” or “mentally ill.”
No. We have no evidence yet that he suffered from any kind of mental illness or was seeking any sort of treatment. Immediately claiming that with no proof to back that fact up leads to the further stigmatization of the mentally ill, and contributes to the (incorrect) assumption that mental illness equals violence, and vice versa.
We don’t know whether Elliot Rodger was mentally ill. What we do know is that he was a Men’s Rights Activist, or MRA.
He was an active member of the “PUAhate,” an online forum (which has been down since the shootings) dedicated to “revealing the scams, deception and misleading marketing techniques used by dating gurus and the seduction community to mislead men and profit from them.” And just to clarify, they’re not revealing these scams because of how vile and misogynistic they are, but rather because these men have tried these techniques and still failed to trick women into sleeping with them. These are men who both feel entitled to have sex with women and also blame all women everywhere for not fucking them. See, they want to have sex with a woman because that’s what they deserve just for being dudes, but they also hate women for withholding what they view as rightfully theirs. And I mean, boy do they ever hate women. The PUAhate forum has, according to an article on The Hairpin, threads with titles like “Are ugly women completely useless to society?” and “Have any hot women ever committed suicide?”
Rodger also subscribed to several YouTube channels on how to be a ‘pick up artist,’ including The Player Supreme Show and RSDfreetour as well as multiple MRA channels.
Last night, shortly before going on his killing spree, Rodger posted a video on YouTube to serve as his manifesto. In it, he declares that he’s a 22 year old virgin, and then goes on to say:
‘College is the time when everyone experiences those things such as sex and fun and pleasure. But in those years I’ve had to rot in loneliness. It’s not fair. You girls have never been attracted to me. I don’t know why you girls aren’t attracted to me. But I will punish you all for it,’ he says in the video, which runs to almost seven minutes.
>‘I’m going to enter the hottest sorority house of UCSB and I will slaughter every single spoilt, stuck-up, blonde slut that I see inside there. All those girls that I’ve desired so much, they would’ve all rejected me and looked down on me as an inferior man if I ever made a sexual advance towards them,’
‘I’ll take great pleasure in slaughtering all of you. You will finally see that I am, in truth, the superior one. The true alpha male …’
This is what the Men’s Rights Movement teaches its members. Especially vulnerable, lonely young men who have a hard time relating to women. It teaches them that women, and especially feminist women, are to blame for their unhappiness. It teaches them that women lie, and that women are naturally predisposed to cheat, trick and manipulate. It teaches them that men as a social class are dominant over women and that they are entitled to women’s bodies. It teaches them that women who won’t give them what they want deserve some kind of punishment.
We need to talk about this. The media, especially, needs to address this. We live in a culture that constantly devalues women in a million little different ways, and that culture has evolved to include a vast online community of men who take that devaluation to its natural conclusion: brutal, violent hatred of women. And I don’t mean that all these men have been physically violent towards women, but rather that they use violent, degrading, dehumanizing language when discussing women. Whose bodies, just as a reminder, they feel completely entitled to.
Another reminder: this isn’t an isolated incident. Not by a long shot. No, most men don’t go out in a blaze of glory after shooting up in a sorority house, but there are so many examples of men becoming violent towards women after being rejected. Like the kid last month who stabbed a girl to death because she wouldn’t go to the prom with him. The threat of violence is the main reason why many women feel unable to leave an abusive relationship – because after leaving is when they are at their most vulnerable. When you look the statistics on violence against women, Elliot Rodger’s act doesn’t seem so much like a one-off incident. He was participating, albeit in a grandiose public way, in the time-honoured tradition of controlling women with violence and punishing them when they don’t behave as desired.
We don’t know if Elliot Rodger was mentally ill. We don’t know if he was a “madman.” We do know that he was desperately lonely and unhappy, and that the Men’s Rights Movement convinced him that his loneliness and unhappiness was intentionally caused by women. Because this is what the Men’s Rights Movement does: it spreads misogyny, it spreads violence, and most of all it spreads a sense of entitlement towards women’s bodies. Pretending that this is the a rare act perpetrated by a “crazy” person is disingenuous and also does nothing to address the threat of violence that women face every day. We can’t just write this one off – we need to talk about all of the fucked up parts of our culture, especially the movements that teach men that they have the right to dominate and intimidate and violate women, and we need to change things. Because if we don’t, I guarantee that this will happen again. And again. And again.
‘”Why do men feel threatened by women?” I asked a male friend of mine. So this male friend of mine, who does by the way exist, conveniently entered into the following dialogue. “I mean,” I said, “men are bigger, most of the time, they can run faster, strangle better, and they have on the average a lot more money and power.” “They’re afraid women will laugh at them,” he said. “Undercut their world view.” Then I asked some women students in a quickie poetry seminar I was giving, “Why do women feel threatened by men?” “They’re afraid of being killed,” they said.’
Margaret Atwood, Writing the Male Character (1982)
ETA: A few people have been commenting to tell me that I’m wrong about Elliot not having a mental illness, as his family members have reported to the media that he had Asperger syndrome. Asperger syndrome is not a mental illness – it is a neurological condition, and it does not predispose people to violence. Correlating Asperger’s with violence is wrong and uninformed and you are doing more harm than good by saying that.
The Belle Jar 
Hey, can someone please answer this question for me. I just read this story on this sicko and I’ve been on the net looking at stuff when I stumbled across this.
Anyway, my question is what is the difference between an MRA and a feminist. I could google it and get a second hand response, but if someone could reply to me directly that would be nice, thanks.
P.S. I’m a male, who supports feminism and whatever the male version is called (lets just say I support humanism, all humans to be equal. lol)
MRA teaches males that they are superior to woman, that they have rights over them and the right to dominate them in any way. Whereas, feminism teaches women to stand up for themselves, that we have equal rights and that no gender is superior.
I’m not a huge fan of feminism (I’m a female), because sometimes members take it too far as to say we are more superior. But they are not true feminists.
You can find true feminists at the park at night, ensuring that no woman has to encounter any violence while walking home at night (sexual, physical, verbal or emotional). You can find a true feminist walking in what people have called a “Slut Walk”, where they support the fact that no woman ” asks ” to be raped or a victim of other sexual violence, despite what they are wearing, how they are acting or saying.
They encourage women to vote, get promotions at work and not be forced to vr a stay at home mom (unless you want to) because we should be given the same opportunities as men.
Is there a difference between those who follow the MRA and female chauvinists?
I should elaborate, people like Hanna Rosin who use hyperbolic statements like the end of men, etc?
Something funny that im noticing
the men on here who are getting offended are mad because they’re being insulted and neglected. Like “how dare you lump me in with these psychopaths. Not all men are like this.”
The women tend to be more like
“How dare women get abused for having and/or not having sex. Women are not prizes to be sold and ripped apart”
Men: dont insult me
Women: dont kill me
Okay, just for the MRA on here. Feminists are not enemies. We don’t want to stop you from building shelters for battered men or claim that women can’t abuse and kill men (we believe women are also strong, so why would we have a problem that a woman can be deadly?), and we’re more than okay with men being able to express themselves without being stigmatized for having feelings. Feminists are not against these things.
what were are trying to do is call attention to violence and sexual vulgarity and body distortion that women face. Its not “lets make women better than men because men are evil and gross!” Its “hey. We should make this world more hospitable for women and treat them with dignity, and not have their roles be catered by men’s needs”. Building women up isnt the same as tearing men down. Saying we should help women isnt the same as saying we need to hurt men. You’re getting mad at the people fighting TB because there are people struggling with aids. Its so awful to read some of these comments because they go from “we should prevent these kinds of things from happening to women again” to “how could you say men are all like this?” We’re not. We need the men and women who do this to be stopped. And since 99% of rape is committed by men, its not hard to see why violent and sexually entitled men are a problem. Its so wrong. The men here are getting offended because your feelings are being hurt by being “associated” with an awful person. You don’t want us to make you feel bad. The women are offended because we are being killed for being women. Yes, I was teased all my life for being a certain way, and being treated like you’re some monster is terrible. But this isn’t about the protection of mens egos, this is about saving the lives and bodies of women.
Radical feminists like this give a bad name to feminism.
Dear men and women,
You are both crazy psychopaths.
Sincerely,
God
supposedly god created us, so….
How can you call this a misogynistic killing when it is clear he stabbed 3 men, shot 1 guy, shot 3 women, and the rest so far are “gender neutral”?
Did you watch his video?! He clearly targets women. He killed everyone to punish all women.
They can say that because it helps their cause. The issue with rising feminism and male groups (masculinism? If that’s a thing), is that they are just drawing these lines deeper of “us vs them” in terms of gender. Misogyny vs Misandry. It gets to the point where any issue is reduced to someone being a victim because of their gender. Obviously Mr. Rodgers didn’t just hate women, I would say he had a huge grudge against people in his age group, all people. It’s articles like this that should open readers’ eyes to how asinine any gender cause is.
Saddened by many of these comments. I’m a straight male. Single for over 15 years. Not by choice. I have been confused by apparently capricious women, and it’s disappointing. But I am a feminist, and I defend the right of women to make their own decisions. Of course there are women out there who use men. A lot of them are married to millionaire footballers. So what? That doesn’t give me the right to judge a woman who rejects me. Show some maturity. Get over yourselves.
I’m not sure what a “Men’s Right Activist” is, but am pretty sure Elliot Rodger was psychotic. First clue: he killed a whole bunch of people. Second clue: he killed himself. I have met my share of misogynist assholes, but I have also met my share of people experiencing psychotic illness, and yes, it is possible to be both. None of which should be construed as an excuse for the society which provided the misogynist content for Rodger’s delusions. But arguing that he was not insane is a non-starter.
Thank you SO MUCH for speaking out about the mental illness thing. I am so sick of the media assuming every shooter shoots because he’s mentally ill. People need to call the media on this–and loudly. Heck, even if a shooter does have a history of depression or something, that doesn’t mean that’s why he murdered.
This is a ridiculous article. Yes, we do know he was mentally ill….he had been medicated and showed many red flags that he was troubled in any number of ways. The mentally ill or those with various disorders can display them in a multitude of very complex symptoms…most generally they obsess over a specific topic…and the brain flies with it. It’s true most people who are mentally ill are NOT dangerous and are more likely to hurt themselves than anyone else. More often than not, they are extremely intelligent, mostly to their disadvantage. Just more ignorance spewed by people who know nothing about the complexities of mental illness…..and this kind of ignorance written without a true understanding….only makes it more difficult for people to understand diseases of the brain and make it more likely people won’t seek treatment because of a possible stigma attached. We may never know exactly why his mental illness became a warped and entangled connection with women, rejection and loneliness…but without question he was a struggling young man that had be in distress for a number of years. Unfortunately, the primary protocol used for people who are in possible distress in order to be admitted to a treatment facility are…if they are a danger to themselves or others. The problem with that criteria , is far too often, they are in no position to tell someone directly that they are feeling suicidal or have plans of killing other people. They are in no mental state to share these deeply confusing feelings….or have already make a plan in their heads….and because of their disturbed thinking can appear fine.
‘”Why do men feel threatened by women?” I asked a male friend of mine. So this male friend of mine, who does by the way exist, conveniently entered into the following dialogue. “I mean,” I said, “men are bigger, most of the time, they can run faster, strangle better, and they have on the average a lot more money and power.” “They’re afraid women will laugh at them,” he said. “Undercut their world view.” Then I asked some women students in a quickie poetry seminar I was giving, “Why do women feel threatened by men?” “They’re afraid of being killed,” they said.’
Margaret Atwood, Writing the Male Character (1982)
I think mental illness plays a role in most mass shootings BUT it is not the only factor. While I don’t know the exact racial identity of Elliott, the majority of mass rampage shooters are white men.I think the negative sides of the socialization of men, particularly white men has more to do with this and if a male receives these negative messages more than other messages and really internalizes them AND has a mental disorder then the results can be devastating. Jackson Katz wrote this so well after the Newtown tragedy- http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jackson-katz/men-gender-gun-violence_b_2308522.html
Note – I’m not saying everything about how men are socialized is bad or that men are bad, I’m just saying there are some very negative and harmful messages young men get. But I know some MRA supporter will call me a white-hating, man-hating feminazi. Well you know what? Bring it. That criticism just helps me know I’m doing something right.
Anyways thank you so much Anne for writing this. You are spot-on!
Aspberger’s is NOT a mental illness. It is considered on the autism spectrum. People with Aspberger’s syndrome have trouble connecting with others socially. It is just the way their brain is. It is not a chemical imbalance like depression. Their brains learn and process things differently from the general population. Generally people with Aspberger’s are gentle people who need some help and guidance along the way. I’d suggest you and everyone read and learn more about it. We do not know enough about this young man and what led him to do what he did. The blog above gives us an insight into what may go on for some young men, and perhaps some of this happened with this young man. As a community, we need to do our best to love one another and help each other. If people are struggling they need to find help to cope and we may need to lead these people to the help they need. We need to remove stigma’s when it comes to issues and conditions and illnesses of the brain. We need to NOT take a diagnosis and blame it on the crime that was done in this case.
well said,
thank you for your input.
Thank you for the only intelligent take on this topic.
Even if he was mentally ill… why is the fact that he was a misogynist whose world view was based on a society telling him that a woman and her body is the reward for existing and being nice being ignored?!?!?!? Cuz that is what this is really about. The fact that society paints women and their bodies as a prize, an object, as everything and nothing at the same time. I have read more articles, especially mainstream, stating he was a nice but disturbed young man, completely overlooking his hate speech. You know why? Because it is fucking normalized! This shit needs to end now, it needs to no longer be painted as just a mental illness, and the fact that society is overlooking this and created that worldview in the first place needs to be addressed!!!!
So here’s a question bourne of my true ignorance on the subject: Is being sociopathic considered a mental illness? Because he seems more sociopathic than mentally ill to me…from reading his manifesto. Again, this is an honest question.
People are projecting whatever they know/believe onto the story, like they do with every incident like this. I’m probably no different.
I think anyone who chooses to murder people for a reason like is inherently mentally ill. I watched some of his previous Youtube videos where it’s clear he’s going off the deep end but he’s not nearly as misogynistic, he’s more depressed and apparently completely isolated (which breeds mental health issues). The story here to me is that it’s so easy for people, especially young men to fall through the cracks in the modern age and become completely isolated.
It depends how you define mentally ill. Someone who states that ” I’ll take great pleasure in slaughtering all of you” is not sane. You are absolutely correct to suggest that there are many murderers and aggressors who have a normal mentality, as they have reasonable motive. Revenge towards the whole female population is not one.
It is if you’ve been socialized/taught by media and pop culture that the only way you are a validated “real man” in society is if you get sex from women, and that if you don’t it’s women who are wrong, it’s women who are to blame.
And THEN you get massive validation/confirmation of that belief from online communities of men who also blame women for not giving them what they’ve been raised to believe they deserve as men for existing, and if they don’t get they’re not “real men” which makes them feel worthless and desperate and increasingly isolated.
This tends to lead to drastic and possibly violent outbursts (except you know, strangely we don’t get these from women? They seem more likely to kill themselves in an act of desperation than others (actually as are MOST young men). But I can’t think of a single female mass shooter/terrorist like this, and honestly I see that as pretty good evidence of the influence the media socialization has on young men in teaching them entitlement. Not just to women’s bodies/sex but also that they are entitled for the entire world to acknowledge and be punished for their problems).
So while true, he MIGHT have been clinically of-a-not-normal-mentality…I can easily see how a “sane” man who has been validated that his lifelong misery has been caused by “women” (as through they’re some kind of hive mind), and also that essentially any actions of revenge would be righteous could possibly eventually be driven to those actions.
Whether those actions are mass murder or beating your girlfriend or date rape…it doesn’t matter.
I’m afraid that dismissing him as nothing more than “mentally ill” and “unstable” negates a huge set of other factors here, including–but not limited to–the link that his beliefs/situation has to many other crimes committed all the time against women (and maybe some men in frustration of what they have/are getting from women).
It also just increases stigma of the mentally ill, who are much more likely to be victims of violence than those committing it.
I don’t understand why you are putting yourself in a position where you are defending this murderer’s actions. His obsession with denial is a form of mental instability. Moot.
Reading these comments reminds me of a Bill Burr skit wherein he says, “women say stupid shit and no corrects them because we all want to fuck them.”
Some of the most ignorant statements I’ve seen on this event have come from women he apparently detested. Those women referring to themselves as sluts, and posting pics of them on the hoods of cars.
The plebes shall have their entertainment I suppose. The message is lost. Sad. Truly sad.
Hey, just wanted to let you know that not all of his victims were women. Four out of the six people killed were men, Christopher Michael-Martinez and the three roommates in his apartment. The other two killed were sorority members.
Yeah he stabbed them to death, which is sickening and awful! But to me that doesn’t detract from the fact that his hostility was largely directed at women when he says things like what Anne pointed out and-
“I’ve been going through college for 2½ years now and in these 2½ years I’ve had to rot in bleak and sad loneliness while other guys got to enjoy all of the pleasures of, you know, sex and socializing and partying,” Rodger said. “I’ve never had a taste of that because no girl has given me a chance.”
Basically he’s saying, “sleep with me or you die.” That’s misogyny in a nutshell.
Well the fact is that Anne conveniently left out some things he said, he ended his diatribe by saying this:
“And all of you men, for living a better life than me, all of you sexually active men, I hate you. I hate all of you. I can’t wait to give you exactly what you deserve. Utter annihilation.”
Add to that the fact that the majority of his victims were males and it’s quite silly to frame this as an purely misogynistic assault directed only towards women, rather it was an misanthropic assault directed against women who rejected him and the men he envied for being successful with women.
And by being a member at a site called PUAhate which is a site dedicated to hatred towards PUA it’s quite unfair to group him with the PUA scene. Actually the PUA scene, just like many feminists, are often quite dismissive towards men like Elliott who cannot get laid. They in no way say that men are entitled to sex, rather they teach men how to act in order to get consensual sex from women. Unfortunately, if you have Asperger’s syndrome, PUA is of no help to you since PUA is about being able to read women’s signals and then act accordingly to them in order to trigger attraction. people with asperger’s syndrome are unable to read unspoken signals and cannot learn game.
Yes he is quite the hateful. To me though, it seems it all goes back to what he sees as a “crime” of women rejecting him and if they hadn’t then he wouldn’t be killing anyone, regardless of gender. He is hostile and if you want to point out that he is hateful of many people, that’s fine but to me, how much of his hostility is misogynistic shouldn’t be overlooked.
I didn’t mention PUAs so I’m unsure why you included that in a reply to me, as opposed to a general comment.
I am not so sure it was misogyny. As an autistic person (he had aspergers, a mild version of autism) who often felt the same way he did when I was much younger, I have really studied this incident. He left videos and a manifesto behind. I think here is the core issue: He had a basic assumption (that I never believed) in the liberal idea of equal outcome (rather than equal opportunity). He never questions this idea of deserving a beautiful blond lady in his manifesto. It just seems to be a fact with him. Kind of like people who believe that everyone should have equal healthcare, food, ect. He just took the assumption to the logical conclusion…if everyone deserves things equally, then he deserved access to high quality sex. He just couldn’t understand that this was something that he had to earn through hard personal self work. And even then, you only deserve what you are capable of achieving. And the more he thought about it, the angrier he got. He was full of envy and rage at the end when he finally lashed out. He was even a member of PUAhate, an anti-mens site, that is against improving one’s self.
Sounds like MRA’s have a lot in common with Islams view of Men domination and rights over women… If so, they should end up with as much backing from the left as the left gives to Muslims
Sounds like you have no idea what you’re talking about to me.
You have no idea what you are talking about. This is an ignorant comment.
Yes, crazy; yes, misogynist; yes, MRAs can be those things. But this article said he was into PUAs, and pick up artists are not the same thing as Mens Rights Advocates. All the evidence in the article that MRAs are bad was from PUA websites. My understanding is that PUA are terrible people who use psychological tricks to force women (interchangably called HBs, hot babes) to have sex with them. MRAs on the other hand are more about legal stuff like custody battles, education for boys, etc. Not to say someone can’t be a PUA and an MRA at the same time, I’m sure that happens all the time, but they are two very different things. Just that the article used all the wrong evidence and didn’t actually show that MRAs are terrible and he was one, just that PUAs are terrible and he was one.
MRAs and PUAs are two sides of the same misogynist coin, if you ask me. They both seek control over women.
Actually, he was anti-men. He was a member of PUAhate, a site that is against learning game or self-improvement to increase personal SMV.
No he was “anti-men who get laid/get women”, I see that as very different.
The fact that his hatred was so strong for both women and men who got attention from women show his entitlement to what he thinks he deserves and they don’t–sex/women. And if he feels entitled to that, well, I doubt he thought of women or respected them as human beings with individual thoughts and feelings and preferences.
Essentially, he sounds like a typical misogynist, along with plenty of other harmful things.
If a man truly cared for men’s rights (and by that I mean what actually hurts men in our society, instead of briefly inconveniencing their sex drive), I’m not sure he would be an MRA. They seem to only care that men aren’t getting sex when they feel like they should be getting it.
And they have this strange belief that billions of women are all in on this together and laughing about it?
That women have all the power because they don’t want to have sex with them when they’re nice or decent to them? As if that isn’t the basic qualification of being a normal person in our society?
Being NICE or DECENT is like the barest qualification for anyone. That isn’t going to get women interested. Because that doesn’t distinguish those guys from any other man, because they’re ALL nice or decent, except on top of that, another man could be passionate about something, have interests (other than “let me have sex with any female”), be ambitious. Stop wallowing in “I exist, so why don’t women throw themselves at me when I speak to them?”
Thing to remember: women aren’t vending machines you put kindness coins into and out comes sex.
Confusing people, they are.
There’s crummy people in every group. To say this guy is an accurate representation of the typical MRA is like saying the feminists who want to circumcise boys for the purpose of limiting their sexual pleasure is your typical feminist. You say, that’s not what most of us feminists are like and we say the same thing. This guy had if not a mental illness, certainly a condition and if you’ve ever known anyone who places on the autism scale you know it largely affects social interaction. It certainly did not drive him to kill, but can we all agree it takes an extremely disturbed individual to kill another human being? Couple this with an inability to relate to women and a society that tells him his self worth is based on how many women he sleeps with? The guy was a killer who happened to be a MRA, not a MRA killer. The patriarchy exists, and believe it or not we MRAs don’t like it either. We’ve evolved past you needing us to smash animals over the head and us needing you to sew furs together for blankets. These 2 skills have nothing to do with investment banking and if a man and a woman are going up for the same position the one who’s better suited for the position should get it. The report that says women make 76 cents on the dollar without controlling for men working an average of about 10 hours more for week, the years take off for rearing children, opting to major in less lucrative fields, the trend of choosing job security over taking risk in changing jobs etcetera hurts your cause. A new study that controls for those factors claims you make 91 cents on the dollar that we make and you know what? You deserve those 9 cents and I’ll stand up with you to fight for those 9 cents because its the right thing to do. By men and women making the same it takes the pressure off men to fulfill their perceived gender roles as providers. You want to walk topless in public, I couldn’t care less. You want to walk topless at night alone and feel safe? I get that want. But to get mad at men because you can’t do that for fear of rape is misguided. Men don’t rape, people rape. No one had to teach me that you don’t force yourself on someone else. Most people don’t rape, most people don’t kill, but unfortunately we don’t live in a utopia and there are bad people out there. I’d like to walk where I please at night with my nice watch, but do it in the wrong neighborhood and a person who lets say for this scenario is black steals my watch, should I get mad at black people? Is it ok to hold a whole race accountable for that person? No? Why? The majority of black people don’t steal things, the majority of men don’t rape. To rape someone you need to be disturbed, not male. Bad people who ruin it for the rest of us exist in every race, color, gender, creed. Most MRAs agree with a lot of what real feminists have to say, we have only 1 concern and here it is. The patriarchy has made things worse off for you, we just ask that if we males who’d like to see an equal power share support you on this that you treat us with the same respect. I want my concerns listened and treated with respect the same as yours. If I have a son I don’t want him to be taught he’s inherently bad at school because he likes to roughhouse in school where we prize prim and proper behavior. Any parent will tell you there are inherent gender traits, boys are more physical and I wouldn’t want his development stunted for the sake of holding the female disposition as ideal/zero tolerance policies. If there must be a draft at all we should all have to register. Though its likely I’ll never be drafted/have to go die for my country this is only a danger we’re in and we’d like to feel validated. If we’re sentenced for the same crime, I want the same time. Rape is something that can ruins someone’s life, as can false rape charges. I believe false rape charges should be treated with the exact same severity as rape. If I get divorced I want the same chance of getting custody of my child. What do I care about? I see what a shit fest the patriarchy is, and I don’t want a matriarchy. Equality, transparency in studies without the spin of some agenda, this is what a true MRA is concerned with.
well said, cody m. thank you.
Men don’t rape, people rape? Hate, to break it to you but, men do rape. Not all men but a hell of a lot of them. Regularly and often without consequence. I’m sure you’re a lovely guy but you write like an apologist for the rape culture.
so do women
You’re wrong. At least here in America, 90% of rapes are carried out by less than 5% of the male population – sick individuals who are repeat offenders. I’m not trying to say that it’s not a problem, or that it’s unfair to focus more on man-on-woman sexual violence than woman-on-man. When people try to belittle the issue of rape it absolutely turns my stomach. But your argument is the quickest way to alienate men who were not necessarily brought up to want to help women and hear them out – men who need a small push in the right direction rather than a shove in the wrong direction that only confirms their misguided views about feminism. Ending rape and violence against women is NOT a woman’s cause, it is a HUMAN cause and it is absurd that it is not recognized as such by every educated being on the planet. No apologies here.
And you sound like a brainwashed loon who reads junk stats like the bible and thinks Jezebel is unbiased and factual. Yes men rape. So do women.
A “hell of a lot of them?” That’s a fun empty term you get to throw around to make people feel bad and not argue with you huh? Let’s take a loot at that claim. 3.5-3.75 billion males on the planet at any given year. Recent U.N. study of 65 different countries including all of the highest concentrated countries turned up about 250k cases of rape annually. Thats .00007% of the male population. That means if you gathered 10,000 men in a room, 7 might be rapists. Might. Yeah that’s totally a rate you should throw around as “a heck of a lot.” Just like how “a heck of a lot” of massive meteors have hit earth wiping out most life, and “a heck of a lot” of identical quintuplets are born every year.
Even THAT number I ended at generously pretends that every single case is a completely unique male, which ridiculous. Just wish people like you would actually understand statistics and stop trying to warp and blame instead of actually trying to fix anything.
@ Cody
Oh wow, apologia incoming.
Absolutely not. People are being killed right now for all sorts of rational reasons – religious belief, political belief, the mere fact they are women. No level of ‘disturbance’ is necessary, just the motivation and will to use violence to further your cause.
Most rapists are men.
Because stealing is just like rape. Apples to apples and all that.
Actually no. Theft and rape are not alike. Well…maybe a little because you’d like to blame the victim for wearing a nice watch instead of the perpetrator of the crime.
If you happen to be white and male – being taken seriously is the default option. Not so much for women and minorities.
If boys have a problem learning about boundaries and respect for others bodies – boys really do have problem then don’t they – because respecting and having empathy for others is a basicfraking trait of civilized people the world over.
Because biology is destiny right? Social conditioning and norms have nothing to do with this? Because we live in the wild with no civilization and no society you must be absolutely right.
Zero tolerance for abusive, bullying behaviour? Heaven forbid we start teaching children to be respectful and caring at early age. Tell me more about how caring and empathy are only ‘female’ traits – all for a shite justification as to why men shouldn’t have to change their behaviour and strive to become better human beings.
Dudes exclude women from draft, blame women for not dying as frequently as they do in fruitless bouts of nationalistic fervour.
Dudes make judicial system and hold most of top positions – blame women for unequal treatment due to the norms they set up.
Go step on some lego, right now. You do not get to compare being raped to being falsely accused of rape. There is just so much misogyny packed into these two sentences.
Let me assure you, as soon as we stop sympathizing with rapists (see Steubenville, et al.) we’ll look just as carefully into all the damage false accusations are causing.
Dude sees injustice of patriarchal justice system, attacks the few instances where it favours women, ignores rest of problem.
No, you really don’t as evinced by your originally keen MRA outlook on the issues you’ve mentioned.
So how does harassing women, making threats to their person and creating a culture of misogyny move you toward that goal?
Tell me how your noble equality platform works for women and men toward that goal of a better society and how it isn’t a platform of hatred?
I take issue with one of your responses in particular:
“If you happen to be white and male – being taken seriously is the default option. Not so much for women and minorities.”
The problem is that while white males are taken seriously by 99% of our dysfunctional society, we are NOT taken seriously by people such as yourself – precisely the people we need to be engaging with around these issues. I feel like many activists (with important causes that deserve to be heard) lash out at the archetypal “white male” villain by automatically discounting what any white male has to say, on the assumption that any white male would axiomatically reject or belittle whatever activists might have to say. This assumption is irresponsible. The response, as I’ve seen it play out on my college campus, is essentially: “white males don’t want to hear what we have to say, so why should we hear them out?”. This angry sentiment tells white men that they are not allowed to be part of the solution. The idea of “check your privilege” is a reasonable one; however, as long as people are actually uttering these words in debate or argument, no issue will ever be solved and those on each side will become further disconnected – the marginalized become further marginalized. Social justice can’t happen overnight. My cynical, less-than-perfect theory is that the culture needs to be changed steadily, starting unfortunately with white males, because as our dysfunctional society stands, they are the people who “matter” and who will be heard by default. At least until things get better. I do think it wrong that white men are necessarily on top of our society (this being a consequence of grave wrongs in the past), but change works smoother and faster in a top-down format.
It worries me that more than a few comments posted in response to this article are yet more feminist-on-feminist attacks. Considering that, largely, people’s comments have been articulately made and haven’t descended into name-calling and swearing, its exasperating that instead of supporting fellow feminists in a dialogue, people are nit-picking insignificant turns of phrase and belittling people who dare to ponder matters that they haven’t studied at Phd level.
Other feminist are not your enemy, you will not all share exact viewpoints on every tiny matter and it wont make either person more right, or morally superior to the other to berate them for less-than-perfect articulation of their point.
Instead, please can we be thankful that there are outspoken women unafraid to comment on sensitive issues regarding feminism and recognise that perhaps it is ignorant, racist, women-beating misogynists that are the enemy, not other feminists.
Ah, drivel disguised as an actual argument by formatting it. I’ll go ahead and use the same talking points so you don’t get confused when I take apart everything you said like you tried so hard to do to Cody and failed miserably.
“There’s crummy people in every group.”
Oh, wow, a basic fact that you somehow managed to take offense to right off the bat. You’re clearly a rational and level-headed individual.
“agree it takes an extremely disturbed individual to kill another human being?”
Semantics. You made no actual argument here at all. You think it takes motivation and will to use violence, so does he. He just thinks that classifies a person as “disturbed” while you’d rather people say “a man” so your little victim complex based worldview doesn’t get threatened.
“Men don’t rape, people rape.”
And women also rape, so you assuring us that most rapes are committed by men adds literally nothing to the conversation on this point but another annoying reminder that you think you (and all women) are flawless perfect victims and refuse to even let someone state basic facts that disagree with that.
“I’d like to walk where I please at night with my nice watch, but do it in the wrong neighborhood and a person who lets say for this scenario is black steals my watch, should I get mad at black people?”
Jesus…. “Wait…I’m not a black man, this isn’t about me being a victim! What do I do?! Oh, I know, I’ll make up a completely different argument and pretend he said that!” No fucking shit rape isn’t the same thing as theft. You’re the only one here who even implied that. The point you CLEARLY missed (since your entire argument throughout your comment hinges on doing the exact thing he says you shouldn’t) is that it makes you a horrible fucking human being when you generalize an entire group on the actions of less than a hundredth of a percent of them. Would you rather he said “should I hate all Muslims because a few are terrorists?” Same fucking thing. Stop building straw men. It makes you look stupid. But don’t worry, I know its just you and not all women, since I’m a sane and rational human being.
“I want my concerns listened and treated with respect the same as yours.”
Protip: if you have to make up a fact about someone and then attack that fact, your argument is fucking stupid. Nowhere did he say he was white. Even if he was, you’re just proving his point. You attack his opinions because there’s a man making them. You’re clearly not actually attacking the opinions, because nowhere in your diatribe against him asking people to JUST BE FUCKING NICE do you actually make a coherent argument. You’re just here to make an issue about you and solve fucking nothing at all. You’re a cancer.
“If I have a son I don’t want him to be taught he’s inherently bad at school because he likes to roughhouse in school where we prize prim and proper behavior.”
I can’t really argue this because you didn’t even bother to make a coherent thought. If boys have a problem learning about boundaries and respect for others bodies….then what? You have to have an effect to your cause, you just take a sentence to vaguely say something about boys being subhuman for being children and also male at the same time (GASP) and move on. Good job. Another one of his points proven. I don’t even have to finish this really, you do such a great job of making yourself look like an idiot.
“Any parent will tell you there are inherent gender traits,”
Hey now, what did we say about making up arguments to attack? Quit it. Where did he say social conditioning isn’t a thing? Nowhere? Exactly. Funny story: the field of child psych has been split over the nature vs. nurture argument for the entire existence of child psych. That’s because (and this may come as a shock to you seeing how you think arguments work) both sides have actual facts backing them up. Yes social conditioning happens, but people are also born with natural tendencies that yes, sometimes depend on gender. Fact: males have more testosterone. Fact: testosterone causes aggression. Ergo, any person with a brain will tell you that that’s an inherent gender trait. Yes that could probably be conditioned out, but isn’t that what they say about gays too? All he’s saying is he doesn’t want his kid made to feel wrong for having a certain hormone he can’t control the production of. He never said anything about his kid needing to be allowed to beat people up, but kids wrestle all the time, male AND female.
“I wouldn’t want his development stunted for the sake of holding the female disposition as ideal/zero tolerance policies.”
Dorothy, you’re doing the yellow brick road all wrong. You’re supposed to have a cowardly lion, a tin man, and ONE scarecrow, not build a field full of straw men and go home. He said nothing about bullying or abuse. All he said was that he, like other sane and rational people, realizes that there is a difference between boys and girls and would like that to be okay, instead of stigmatized BOTH DIRECTIONS. Lets see if you can even be honest with yourself, lets take two scenarios and MAYBE it will get through to you: a grade school boy hits a grade school girl. What happens to that boy? He is sent to the office, told he is bad, and punished otherwise. Now a grade school girl hits a grade school boy. What happens to that girl? “That just means she likes you!” You’re a fucking liar if you try to tell me that isn’t a common saying. Same situation, but since one has a penis he’s a terrible person and should be not himself.
“Though its likely I’ll never be drafted/have to go die for my country this is only a danger we’re in and we’d like to feel validated.”
Yes. Cody is specifically responsible for the draft decisions. Good sleuthing there Sherlock. It COULDN’T be that he maybe disagrees with the decisions that someone else made just the same as you, could it? Oh, no, I forgot, he has a penis so that means he was consulted on all decisions made a century before his death.
“If we’re sentenced for the same crime, I want the same time.”
See above. This is why you’re cancer. You can’t just agree that that is shitty and should be changed, you have to stonewall the argument by generalizing a group to fit in with your obvious sexism. YOU are why nothing gets changed.
“Rape is something that can ruins someone’s life, as can false rape charges. I believe false rape charges should be treated with the exact same severity as rape.”
Once again… “Uhhh I don’t have an argument for this…uhh…misogyny! That’s an argument right? Nailed it.” He didn’t say they were the same thing, he just said both things ruin someones life. Rape is fucking horrible. Fuck rapists in the fucking ear. Put them in jail forever. But someone who knowingly lies about something that horrible to falsely put someone in jail for most of their life? Also INCREDIBLY shitty, especially with the stigma on rape in society. Rape trials are 98% hearsay, VERY few people report rapes in time for evidence to be gathered. This makes rape unique among crimes, people are convicted with 0 evidence all the time. This means that there should TOTALLY be an equal consequence for lying about it. Why not? Without that caveat rape can be used as a weapon, why leave that backdoor when there is LITERALLY no reason to?
“If I get divorced I want the same chance of getting custody of my child.”
Woman sees post about injustice in society, attacks the few instances that don’t fit into her sexist worldview, ignores rest of post and its entire meaning. Once again, this doesn’t make you the victim so its not a real problem and you shut it down immediately.
“I see what a shit fest the patriarchy is,”
Uhh…what “keen MRA views?” That women should make the same as men? That ruining someones life is bad no matter the gender of the victim? He even uses false and skewed statistics just like feminists to make women the victim in places no one is the victim. His entire post is about not lumping people into a category because there is shit that needs to be fixed on both sides. You’re a fucking lunatic if you can’t agree with that.
“Equality, transparency in studies without the spin of some agenda, this is what a true MRA is concerned with.”
Dorothy seriously we need some straw for the horses, stop making them into these barely held together people. What is wrong with you? But seriously, what is wrong with you? Where does he harass women or make a SINGLE threat? Or is this, again, just another example of you stonewalling an issue by making things up because someone may take your widdle victim complex away from you if you don’t pretend they’re being as sexist as you are?
You go ahead and tell US how your platform of “shutting down every issue that doesn’t focus exclusively on women and attacking someone for just wanting equality” helps ANYONE AT ALL, and isn’t the actual platform of hatred here? We get it, you hate men, but you’re an idiot.
@J
Wow, muffin. We *are* cranky. I’ll respond to the less ad-homey stuff you managed to extrude into the thread.
Most atrocities are committed by perfectly sane individuals. There is nothing particular mysterious about this, you have the magic google. I suggest you use it.
You said something about making arguments out of straw. I’m certainly glad your not actively engaging in such egregious activity.
So where did I say that? Or were you just making stuff up and attacking it?
Wow dude, as far as making the case for strawmanning you are winning hypocrisy Olympics.
Try to respond to my arguments, not your happy-fun house versions of them.
Sorry muffin, you don’t get to your knickers in a twist when dealing with women making assumptions about rape. Rapists don’t come with convenient labels, thus unless otherwise determined, anyone could be a rapist. Given the violent nature of society it is, sadly, a measure some women take.
Or another excuse why men think they can rationalize away their poor behaviour. Oh it was the evil hormonze! Funny, usually that gets used against women.
You are doing such a great job of blaming women for your problems. The wage-gap must also be women’s fault. Global Warming? Why not? 🙂
Wow, that is an impressive statistic. Tell me, which court convicts people with zero evidence, certainly none that I know of.
Ah yes, what about the menz. We indeed must be in the throes of a false rape epidemic. Or wait..no that is complete nonsense.
The stigma and burden lies almost squarely on the victim of rape. The police, the courts, society can be counted on to shame rather than help victims of rape.
I’m glad you are such an expert on his opinion, and apparently mine as well. 🙂
Easy muffin, you might rupture something with all your rage. Maybe it’s the hormones?
Lol, how can I possibly respond to the arguments your making on my behalf, maybe that’s why it seems so easy to refute. It may be better to quote what I say – and then misconstrue that. It will be a little less obvious that you are arguing with yourself. 🙂
MRA’s are not about equality. Let that sink in muffin, and then take a deep breath before horking out another screed. 🙂
I linked to We Hunted Mammoth, a site that records and categorizes the blatant misogyny spewed from MRA’s and the rest of the manosphere on a daily basis.
In general not really. But I’m sorta hoping you step on some lego soon, on a more specific level to be sure.
Thanks for your edifying reply, I especially learned much about not strawmanning another person’s arguments. 🙂
Here’s basically the same article as in the blog, with a few modifications. it is the type of thing that you would expect to hear on Rush Limbaugh that would be immediately (and rightfully) denounced by anyone of reason.
“We don’t know whether Tzarnaev was mentally ill. What we do know is that he was a Muslim.
Tzarnaev was also a subscriber to several Muslim-affiliated websites and publications. Shortly after going on his killing spree, Tsarnaev wrote a manifesto to explain his intention. In it, he declares that he’s a devout Muslim, and then goes on to say:
‘”When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims,”
This is what Islam teaches its members. Especially vulnerable, lonely young me. It teaches them that non-believers, and especially Western non-believers, are to blame for their unhappiness. It teaches them that Americans lie, trick and manipulate. It teaches them that Muslims as a group are more sacred than non-believers. It teaches them that non-believers who wont convert deserve some sort of punishment.
Another reminder: this isn’t an isolated incident. Not by a long shot. No, most Muslims don’t go out in a blaze of glory after bombing a marathon, but there are so many examples of Muslims being violent toward non-Muslims. Tsarnaev’s act doesn’t seem so much like a one-off incident. He was participating, albeit in a grandiose public way, in the time-honoured tradition of Fatah.
We don’t know if Tameran Tsarnaev was mentally ill. We don’t know if he was a “madman.” We do know that he was desperately lonely and unhappy, and that Islam convinced him that his loneliness and unhappiness was intentionally caused by non-Muslims. Because this is what Islam does.” … etc. etc. (got too bored to try to finish it).
Point is, lets not blame groups of people for the action of one person who was not even a prominent voice or leader in the group…
Holy shit, well said!
Anyone with common sense would recognize the need for true equality which you describe perfectly in your statement.
As both a “real” feminist (your term) and a Mens’ Rights Enthusiast/Ally, I take my hat off and I wish there were more people like you with visible internet presence and a voice. Do you write anywhere on the web?
Sincerely, a woman concerned with *everyone’s* rights.
xx
Some of these comments have really made me lose faith in humanity…
Why would you have any faith in humanity to start with?
What having Aspergers *would* do is make him more vulnerable to accepting at face value what MRAs were telling him. (as someone with ASD myself)
YOU ARE SO FRICKIN RIGHT!!!!! wow lightbulb
This is such an obvious connection I’m ashamed for not thinking it myself.
We may not have proof this man was mentally ill, but if you read what he has written it is clear he is irrational and psychotic. I think psychosis can manifest itself in lots of different ways, and it is very very rare (thank god) for this kind of extreme event to happen.
I don’t think it’s necessary helpful to use what he did as a way of discussing misogyny against women as it’s such a stand apart event, in the same way the all mass shootings are. Better to talk about how easy it is for dangerous people like this to get hold of guns.
This piece may be well-written, but it’s way off base. It reminds me of the reactionary response by men to the Women’s Rights Movement back in the 60s and 70s; same thing here, just a gender reversal. Yes, some men are violent towards women, but not “most men.” Violence is increasing in this country because it gets people’s attention. Everyone wants their 15 minutes of fame. Stop feeding the monster and the monster will go away. The news media does not reflect the reality of the masses; it focuses only on the extremists.
Agree completely. Here’s basically the same article as in the blog, with a few modifications. it is the type of thing that you would expect to hear on Rush Limbaugh that would be immediately (and rightfully) denounced by anyone of reason.
“We don’t know whether Tzarnaev was mentally ill. What we do know is that he was a Muslim.
Tzarnaev was also a subscriber to several Muslim-affiliated websites and publications. Shortly after going on his killing spree, Tsarnaev wrote a manifesto to explain his intention. In it, he declares that he’s a devout Muslim, and then goes on to say:
‘”When you attack one Muslim, you attack all Muslims,”
This is what Islam teaches its members. Especially vulnerable, lonely young me. It teaches them that non-believers, and especially Western non-believers, are to blame for their unhappiness. It teaches them that Americans lie, trick and manipulate. It teaches them that Muslims as a group are more sacred than non-believers. It teaches them that non-believers who wont convert deserve some sort of punishment.
Another reminder: this isn’t an isolated incident. Not by a long shot. No, most Muslims don’t go out in a blaze of glory after bombing a marathon, but there are so many examples of Muslims being violent toward non-Muslims. Tsarnaev’s act doesn’t seem so much like a one-off incident. He was participating, albeit in a grandiose public way, in the time-honoured tradition of Fatah.
We don’t know if Tameran Tsarnaev was mentally ill. We don’t know if he was a “madman.” We do know that he was desperately lonely and unhappy, and that Islam convinced him that his loneliness and unhappiness was intentionally caused by non-Muslims. Because this is what Islam does.” … etc. etc. (got too bored to try to finish it).
Point is, lets not blame groups of people for the action of one extreme person who was not even a prominent voice or leader in the group…
Do you really think not paying attention to the violence will make it go away? Do you understand like how often rape and physical abuse is just not reported? Not paying attention to a problem does not mean the problem just goes away.
He clearly did have mental health problems – he was seeing multiple therapists and you don’t do that if it’s a simple Aspergers’ issue (autistic spectrum conditions are rampant in my family, and while the highest functioning of my ASD relatives has spent some time being counseled, that was predominantly because his father was a violent drunk). Evidence found at the scene of the first three killings (Rodgers’ three male room mates, stabbed to death according to the local sheriff) appears to support the hypothesis that he was seriously disturbed. As a woman with a disability and a mental health condition myself, it’s patently obvious that these two things can coexist, and to say that he wasn’t mentally ill because he had Aspergers is just another way of pushing the ‘he was a woman-hater and therefore evil’ line. He obviously did have incredibly unhealthy views about women, but sadly lots of men do, and yet they don’t react like this. Anyone who considers this to be a considered response to a situation has got to be messed up in the head. I’m not defending this murderer in any way, but I do think the response needs to be more than a kneejerk ‘he hates women’ – he clearly hated everyone, all the ‘cool kids’ that rejected him and the men that had success with women when he didn’t, though perhaps women most of all – which is why at the beginning of his video he declares that he will take revenge on ‘humanity’ and further emphasises ‘all of you’. This is not a single issue event, and while it would be very convenient to assume that his misogyny was the only reason for his actions, it was clearly just a part of his wider profound dysfunction.
Yes, thank you. For all of what you wrote, but especially for the last part. I’m a die-hard feminist, but I think framing this simply in the context of misogyny is disingenuous. Misogyny is where he may have started out, but by the time we got to where we are now, it was full-on misanthropy. Of course, it’s still important to discuss male entitlement to female bodies and men being told that their worthiness is judged by how many women they trick into banging them, because that was where the issue originated. But I’m seeing a lot of comparisons between this and the Polytechnique massacre in Montreal, and in my opinion they’re very, very different. That guy hated women and blamed them for his lack of success. This guy hated the whole world. I mean, he was planning on killing his kid brother for “being more successful” than him, for gods’ sake.
Instead of thinking it’s either one or the other, either misogyny or mental illness, it’s possible it’s both. You know that, right?
He obviously hated women, but he was also prescribed medication for schizophrenia and bipolar disorders but refused to take the medication.
Reblogged this on tales from a bruce eye view.
Ignore the haters, Belle Jar. Never be silenced.
I enjoyed this article because you do not write off this guy as ‘crazy’…which gets us no where in understanding what would lead one to do such an act. It was also good to get a female (or feminist) perspective. However, I feel there is a fundamental mistake in your analysis of this kid. The MRA is certainly a part of the problem, but I feel there is a more inherent issue causing his frustrations. While certain men do perpetuate the stereotype that women are prizes to be won, and that they deserve them in a variety of ways I feel that an underlying cultural defect is the stressor. In our society and media culture, people are constantly misled on how one makes relationships and finds love. In every movie or story perpetuated in film and media culture, one may find hardships in life, but in the end the deserving always win what is rightfully theirs. I believe that this is the flaw in our society that instigated his inability to cope with his shortcomings. On top of an obvious narcissistic personality and god complex this guy was convinced that accumulating wealth and appearances granted one status and the splendors of life. When he was unable to foster this ideal with his social anxieties and the obvious fact that wealth is not a vessel for happiness, he felt trapped and lost. In his manifesto he goes on of how he plans to get rich and a few self-help books delude him to thinking that with determination he can win the lottery of all things. How hopeless of a thought…that he can plan to win the lottery and gain the affections of others. He was truly misguided by his environment and this combined with a toxic response to failure by lashing out at those who had what he didn’t and an odd idea of his dominance over others (maybe a result of his lack of superiority or control in social situations?) led him to this determination. I have no feelings for this boy by believe other than society failed him and labeling him as crazy or that groups stimulated his response are lackluster, and a real look at his inner psyche is necessary in order to adjust for any ways to avoid future tragedies. This is my understanding of the issues, but a solution I have not.
I have just read his unbelievable 140-page diary, you can read it on this link. He is surprisingly lucid in his account, though it leaves you in no doubt that he was completely aware of what he was doing. The diary is titled My Twisted World. There are clear indications that he had depression and experienced extreme levels of shame, envy, anger and humiliation. This is mixed with a victim mentality, so he held others accountable for his feelings. He was diagnosed with Asperger’s and the way he behaves is consistent with that – he is not able to communicate his emotions, for example, when faced with deportation to another country by his parents at the age of 16, rather than communicate his dismay verbally, his response was to throw a temper tantrum.
The first six years of his life were blissful he says (p1-8), then his parents separated at 7, which he says had a big effect. After that he had instances of jealousy and envy with male friends and with girls (p16). After puberty he perceived cruelty in behaviour that was not cruel, such as girls failing to acknowledge him, he is clearly emotionally disturbed (p47-48). By the age of 15 he had become bitter, angry, vituperative and revengeful and he was at a point where wanted to kill everyone in the world. A large proportion of people with Asperger’s develop depression and his comments support that – his experience is “a twisted world of constant suffering.” living “as a lonely, unwanted outcast.” He had few friends (p63-64).
He is clearly misogynistic, blaming women for the “evil” in the world. But he is also misandrist, in his plan, the first phase of vengeance was to torture and kill men and keep their heads in a bag. The second phase was to kill all women indiscriminantly. He was more misogynist though. He also planned to kill his stepmother and brother. (p132) He wanted to punish anyone who was sexually active (p65). I read the Men’s Rights Movement website. It has a victim mentality – they could stop blaming so much and take more responsibility for their feelings. As John Burroughs said, “A man can fail many times, but he isn’t a failure until he begins to blame somebody else.” Think about that. Though I question their involvement – the MRM would have substantiated Elliot’s views, though they didn’t teach him – he was intending to kill women long before he was involved with them. He had an extremely warped view of the world. “Humanity is a disgusting, depraved and evil species.” A mentally ill and deranged man. A probably treatable condition. A sad and tragic event.
http://fusion.net/justice/story/elliot-rodgers-entire-140-page-manifesto-now-online-713671
I love everything about this, and want to take a different perspective on the mental illness topic (sorry, I know this has been the unfair focus of responses to your report, but I hope that you’ll see it’s quite relevant to what I perceive to be the point of your post). I am a psychotherapist with PTSD and depression. I treat children, families, teens, adults with a variety of different diagnoses – Aspbergers included – and I consider all of these diagnoses to fall under the larger umbrella term “mental illness”. From a social justice perspective, differentiating neurological disorders from characterological disorders and addictions and trauma-related disorders and mood disorders perpetuates a very unfortunate hierarchy of mental illness which enables providers, consumers, and the general public to divide our community into “us” and “them”, and furthermore recreates the “model minority” problem that exists in other areas of human diversity including race, class, ability, gender identity, religion, sexuality, etc. Additionally, our present system of diagnosing the mentally ill (the infamous DSM) fails us (as mental health providers, consumers, and society as a whole) because it maintains the status quo of allowing certain maladaptive behaviors to be conceptualized as random rather than the result of a pattern (as you note above). NAMI defines mental illness as “a medical condition that disrupts a person’s thinking, feeling, mood, ability to relate to others and daily functioning” (note that this definition is quite inclusive of Autism Spectrum Disorders), but I would argue that mental illness is not exclusively a medical condition, especially because disorders such as Borderline Personality Disorder and Antisocial Personality Disorder are NOT and have never been biologically-based diagnoses, and furthermore, by medicalizing human behavior, we conveniently divorce it from environmental stressors that impact human behavior. In fact, human behavior is largely motivated by our environment. Our brains evolved to respond to our environments. Attachment and protection of ourselves and others is a central motivating factor for human behavior. It is absolutely 100% mental illness to believe it is okay to harm another human being. When violence is used to protect a person against another person, it fits into what we know about attachment and survival motivated behaviors, but when it is not, it comes from some serious miswiring in someone’s brain. Denying that a subset of the population of people with mental illness are violent is inaccurate. Sorry, mentally ill people ARE violent sometimes, ESPECIALLY when the criminal justice system is where they go before they get good treatment (now, whether or not the latter exists for the severely mentally ill is a whole other story). It is mental illness to believe that it is acceptable to hurt women, or men, or people of color, or Muslims, or anyone. We need the DSM to recognize this (and more than just lumping it together with Psychosis, which is a biologically-based mental illness: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071634/). These are disorders that we absorb, to varying degrees, from the toxic sociopolitical climate that we live in – and it doesn’t excuse behavior, but it does give me hope that we can change behavior (something that the powers that be seem indifferent about).
That’s very interesting, especially the point about environment. I agree that all of the disorders you mention are mental illness. It’s good to hear from a psychotherapist with PTSD experience, do you have a view on him? Also do you think that attachment plays a role here? His attachment to his mother appears to be reasonably secure, but it’s hard to tell. This study proposed a link between attachment and violence.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11140199
So, basically, you want the DSM to by proxy outlaw being a member of the military? I completely agree. Because essentially every war we’ve had for the past forty years has been directed at a particular race or nationality. Hey, humans ARE pretty sick and depraved if you look at the big picture – I would think an educated psychologist such as yourself recognizes that. Divorce rates continue to climb in staggering proportions – if you actually want to have any degree of financial security as a man in this world, you might as well forget about having children because there’s a better chance the lady will leave you and collect child support than she will STAY with you. Baltimore averages over 1 homicide per day! We used spent uranium rounds in Iraq because 1: we wanted a way to dispose of toxic radioactive waste, and 2: we seriously don’t care if Iraqi people hit by stray bullets or fragments get cancer or radiation poisoning. We spend half of our tax revenue on methods of murdering people, half of which are typically innocent bystanders (200,000 innocent people were killed in Iraq.) Then you have one very angry, very lonely (and that is incredibly sad but SO INCREDIBLY COMMON in this fucked up modern culture), mentally ill man who shoots down a handful of people and it gets more media attention than say, Israel launching missiles at Red Cross facilities in fucking Palestine. You know Elliot kind of had a point – humanity really is a sick twisted thing. It’s all too easy to forget about all the people around you and their needs and /just care about yourself and how to get what you want/ and I think that attitude is becoming WAY too common today. Obviously, and unfortunately, Elliot couldn’t get what he wanted out of this life – and that’s totally shitty as all get out. Some gurus and spiritual beliefs teach “acceptance” of circumstance, which is a great attitude to have, but in our egoistic culture it can be excruciatingly painful to accept, say, never finding love or affection or yes, even sex. Yeah, Elliot was probably mentally ill, but hey, so is this fucking culture. “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” I can’t tell you the last time I met a person who actually enjoyed reading informative material or for that matter, actual books. Western civilization is in decline and it only has itself to blame, if you want my honest opinion, and people like Elliot are the canaries in the coal mine. Hookup culture, unprotected sex, accidental pregnancies, out-of-control unregulated capitalistic fuck-the-proletariat economics, higher education that costs as much as a fucking house and a job market that only grants wealthy kids with proper hoop jumping upward mobility…and lets not forget a dating culture that basically revolves around being as close as possibly to a fucking pop culture icon in personality and looks to be successful (since when should anyone have to be a fucking person’s personal entertainer to form a successful relationship? But let me tell you, I know very few women who date men because they are intelligent, reserved and introverted, and I know very few men who look for those same traits in a woman.) That’s what western culture is in a nutshell. One giant, insulting, murderous, self-righteous, self-absorbed cluster fuck.
So, basically, you want the DSM to by proxy outlaw being a member of the military? I completely agree. Because essentially every war we’ve had for the past forty years has been directed at a particular race or nationality. Hey, humans ARE pretty sick and depraved if you look at the big picture – I would think an educated psychologist such as yourself recognizes that. Divorce rates continue to climb in staggering proportions – if you actually want to have any degree of financial security as a man in this world, you might as well forget about having children because there’s a better chance the lady will leave you and collect child support than she will STAY with you. Baltimore averages over 1 homicide per day! We used spent uranium rounds in Iraq because 1: we wanted a way to dispose of toxic radioactive waste, and 2: we seriously don’t care if Iraqi people hit by stray bullets or fragments get cancer or radiation poisoning. We spend half of our tax revenue on methods of murdering people, half of which are typically innocent bystanders (200,000 innocent people were killed in Iraq.) Then you have one very angry, very lonely (and that is incredibly sad but SO INCREDIBLY COMMON in this fucked up modern culture), mentally ill man who shoots down a handful of people and it gets more media attention than say, Israel launching missiles at Red Cross facilities in fucking Palestine. You know Elliot kind of had a point – humanity really is a sick twisted thing. It’s all too easy to forget about all the people around you and their needs and /just care about yourself and how to get what you want/ and I think that attitude is becoming WAY too common today. Obviously, and unfortunately, Elliot couldn’t get what he wanted out of this life – and that’s totally shitty as all get out. Some gurus and spiritual beliefs teach “acceptance” of circumstance, which is a great attitude to have, but in our egoistic culture it can be excruciatingly painful to accept, say, never finding love or affection or yes, even sex. Yeah, Elliot was probably mentally ill, but hey, so is this fucking culture. “It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.” I can’t tell you the last time I met a person who actually enjoyed reading informative material or for that matter, actual books. Western civilization is in decline and it only has itself to blame, if you want my honest opinion, and people like Elliot are the canaries in the coal mine. Hookup culture, unprotected sex, accidental pregnancies, out-of-control unregulated capitalistic fuck-the-proletariat economics, higher education that costs as much as a fucking house and a job market that only grants wealthy kids with proper hoop jumping upward mobility…and lets not forget a dating culture that basically revolves around being as close as possibly to a fucking pop culture icon in personality and looks to be successful (since when should anyone have to be a fucking person’s personal entertainer to form a successful relationship? But let me tell you, I know very few women who date men because they are intelligent, reserved and introverted, and I know very few men who look for those same traits in a woman.) That’s what western culture is in a nutshell. One giant, insulting, murderous, self-righteous, self-absorbed cluster fuck.
@Lord of Asphalt
And in all that word-salad of post, not one mention of misogyny.
Shocked?
Not really. We get this:
Instead of – a society based on normative values that validate the dehumanization, objectification and violence toward one class – the cherry on top?
Somehow calling this a ‘normal’ state of affairs.
I’m not even sure what to make of your response – it seems to lack any clear concise points either for or against what I’ve said, and I’m actually having a hard time decrypting what you said at the end there – care to elaborate, or would you rather just say something that /feels/ against me, but yet has no substance as such? It’s great and all to deflect if you’re a lying politician, but you’re talking to a real human being here – and I don’t like ti when people insult me either directly or indirectly, and then refuse to actually back up their perspective whatsoever. I made a lot of points in my post, where are yours or the counter arguments? Or are you just a fucking troll, eh?
It’s word salad in some respects because I can pull a million examples to share with you and everyone else as evidence of my major point – that is, society is incredibly fucked up as a general rule of thumb, and they let some seriously bad things happen every day when they really DO have the power to prevent it.
You know, I think my major feeling on the whole deal is this – different groups are going to try and utilize this event to support their feelings or beliefs or agendas, when ultimately, you have a person here who did something incredibly crazy but apparently was very hurt and unloved in the world, with no tools to cope with it. And we don’t offer tools to cope in western culture – it’s dog eat dog – it’s, as I said, unregulated capitalism fuck-the-proletariat and that trickles down into EVERYTHING because this culture is so HIGHLY COMPETITIVE. If you’re poor, and uneducated, we don’t give you tools. If you’re ugly, or lack social skills, we don’t give you tools. You either have them, or you don’t. And if you don’t, you either shrink into oblivion or you lash out at the world. Think about that. Why do poor urban communities have high crime rates? Gee, I wonder. They are missing something most other people don’t have to work very hard to achieve, that is, some degree of financial security. Elliot was missing something most other people don’t have to work very hard to achieve, that is, some degree of emotional security and physical pleasure. I think the atmosphere in this country affects every facet of everyone’s life. Do you disagree?
@Lord Of Asphalt (6:45pm)
Out of all the factors you listed, the one that is most relevant to this incident: Misogyny.
Let me quote some of his writings:
—–
And most of them were not particularly relevant.
So being hurt and unloved justifies his actions somehow?
Yet, so many people suffer precisely under these conditions and manage not to take their hatred out on women and men by murdering them. Sympathy for those who were murdered first and foremost, after we can mourn for poor Elliot.
He thought he was entitled to sexy-times with women. They didn’t co-operate and thus he decided to murder them.
His words:“Women represent everything that is unfair with this world, and in order to make the world a fair place, they must all be eradicated.”
This isn’t all that is wrong with world affecting Elliot, this is Elliot taking revenge on women for not giving him the sexy-times he felt he was rightly entitled to receive.
Society effecting people in society? How can one disagree with such a generality?
The point I was making in my original reply to you was that in your laundry list of “all that is wrong with society” you fail to mention relevant social features (patriarchal norms, misogyny, etc.) that apply directly to the case at hand.
Okay, I’ll concede to that, although until I had the epiphany that maybe you were a feminist and then looked and realized this was a feminist blog, it wasn’t exactly at the forefront of my mind, so I apologize for that. Yes, the boy was a misogynist quite apparently, although I think that’s more like a surface observation, because what interests me more is the source of his outward expression of hatred towards women, not that expression itself. Much like what should concern a doctor are not symptoms, but rather causes.
I am not familiar with all his material, although I did watch the video and have been trying to read through the manifesto, skipping much of it as I go along. There’s some interesting ideas in there, but I haven’t quite come across statements quite as severe as what you’re saying, so I apologize for that as well.
I don’t feel as though what I’ve said is irrelevant – Elliot DOES say humanity in GENERAL is screwed up, but yes, he does fixate on women. We all have an equal hand in this mess that is our society, whether you’re male or female. He is a product of a very sick society, and while I do think you trying to place much of the blame on male chauvinism and patriarchy is a bit much, I don’t disagree with you outright. I’m about as fed up with the bullshit I see men pulling around me with women (and they are often successful, unlike Elliot) as anyone else, and I’m about as fed up with fat cat capitalists, typically white males, controlling the majority of wealth and power as well. That being said, the feminist movement has essentially allowed fat cat capitalists of the female variety to end up in positions of power and wealth, so it really hasn’t changed much in that regard – which is why I’m not too involved with the feminist movement – it has merits, but I would rather see the larger and more problematic issues solved. First world problems versus the rape, murder and pillaging of entire nationalities, and the oppression of the working classes, I’m sure you understand what I mean. It’s amazing to me that we can actually make progress on the front of women’s rights while simultaneously slaughtering countless civilians in other countries (taking from those people their ultimate right, that of LIVING.) – it seems a little too hypocritical to be possible.
Does being hurt and unloved JUSTIFY his actions? No. But it does EXPLAIN them. If a person is irrational, his or her justifications will be irrational. It justified his actions TO HIM. An unfortunate side effect of an overly competitive society is ending up feeling like you have zero control over your reality, which some people experience to higher degrees than others. In this case, I think he felt he had zero control over his ability to obtain some kind of meaningful relationship with the opposite sex. He responded to the suffering in his ego rashly, with extreme violence. People respond to that “feeling” to varying degrees as well. I think it would surprise people if they could look more closely inside of themselves and others how many people actually have the same kind of issue Elliot has here, that is, suffering in their ego because they can’t attain precisely what they want, because they can’t accept that control is mostly out of the question. I see it in women, and men, it has nothing to do with sex.
I do feel like maybe you are trying to demonize him a little too much, but that is your right. If any of our lives had been slightly different, with the right conditions and conditioning, we would easily be in the same place he was. It’s unfortunate that these sorts of events always end up dehumanizing a person – in this case Elliot – instead of resulting in everyone taking a good hard look at themselves and their own demons.
Good to speak with you, friend.
I think it’s quite clear from his videos/fb…and oh wait… and the actions he took that there is something seriously wrong with this kids head.
The kid WAS a mentally spoiled brat. Don’t even begin to act like he wasn’t.
You can not pick and choose disorders that support or disprove your world view.
Well, I mean, you can if you wish but it makes me take what you say a lot less seriously.
It’s ableist to assert that Elliot Rodgers was mentally ill. As every scientific study has shown, the mentally ill are LESS prone to violence than “normal” people. In fact, the more normal one is, the more likely one is to commit murder! If you happen upon a field of decapitated bodies stacked sky-high, drenched in rivers of blood — I guarantee you some rational, sane, emotionally-balanced individual was behind the carnage.
Actually it was confirmed he had asbergers… so idk if u count that as a mental illness or not but it is a disability..
Reblogged this on The Virtual Vicar and commented:
Some really important thoughts about how online misogyny leads to real life violence against women:
Reblogged this on meet me at the pear tree.
This “Self proclaimed gentleman=deserving sex” ideology is getting way out of hand. We can send people to the moon, but we cannot teach boys that they are not entitled to a woman’s body.
@Emily
What you ask is clearly unpossible – asking men to change their behaviours and act like decent human beings.
No- stop there. There are men who act like decent human beings. You are being just like the men you are criticizing if you say these things.
Agreed, but boys want to be able to get a girlfriend, and some of them don’t realize its not a big deal. It’s not that they feel entitled, its that they feel unwanted. Their belief is that every other guy is doing well except them, and so “women” as a whole have a problem specifically with them. It’s like a person who keeps getting passed over and rejected when interviewing for a job- he can’t help but to take it personally, because its his life. The message that guys like that need is that they are the only ones holding themselves back from normal human interactions.
We can send people to the moon, but we cannot teach girls that they are not entitled to a man’s wallet
.
What hole did you crawl out of? Neither I nor any other female I know feel that way.
I think that you provided a very insightful article. Although Elliot Rodgers was mentally ill, his rants on Youtube indicated a severe feeling of entitlement as it pertained to a woman’s body. It was truly sickening to watch his videos, so I could only get through half of his last one, and half of another. It did not dawn on this young man that he was not entitled to women’s bodies. Yes, he was mentally ill, which I believe led to his atrocious act; however, I witness many men that have a similar mindset and they are not mentally ill. Perhaps they are, but have not been diagnosed. I remember a guy once told me I was selfish because I would not sleep with him, this made sense to him! After I got married, he later went on to stalk me through mutual friends and even tried to get to me through my now ex-husband. I think there are definitely insecurities, emotional problems, a lack of maturity, and yes– sometimes mental illness, that play a role in this behavior. Also, I think the media plays a role in this sense of entitlement that a growing number of men (of all races) are displaying. As an African American, I will say that this issue is especially problematic in the black community, where many black men (who lacked Father figures) look to these sexist rappers for guidance.
Lonely people can be very desperate and most often fall into a group that embraces them, sometimes it’s gangs and sometimes it’s the military….this time it was the Men’s Right’s Movement.
It is in absolutely no way stigmatizing to suggest that this man had a psychiatric disability. It is extremely likely that he had a psych disability, because his actions so dramatically deviate from both typical and rational behavior. If you encountered someone who had been speaking incoherently for hours and didn’t seem to respond to outside stimuli, would it be stigmatizing to infer that the person had a mental illness? If your answer is no, then you’re tiptoeing around what mental illness is (and that it sometimes causes people to be violent) and you’re doing more harm than good. As someone who worked for years as an advocate of people who’d been found not guilty by reason of insanity, I can attest that the crowd of folks who wanted to stick their fingers in their ears and pretend that mental illness never causes someone to commit a crime were amongst the primary reasons that these people were completely isolated from the rest of the advocacy community, and why civil rights in the hospital I worked in lagged 20-30 years behind other psychiatric hospitals.
Your comments about Asperger’s are especially infuriating. You are correct that Asperger’s is not a mental illness, but you go on to say that “correlating Aperger’s with violence is wrong and uninformed” because ” it does not predispose people to violence.” Exactly what cognitive or psychiatric disability do you think DOES correlate with violence to others?
You seem to be confusing correlation with causation here. Yes, when something like this happens that it happened because of the persons mental illness, because mental illness does sometimes cause people to do terrible things. No, mental illness does not correlate with violence; people with mental illness are no more likely to be violent than those without. We need to get better as a society about holding nuances about mental health in our heads, and your absolutely baseless belief that we don’t have any evidence that Elliot Rodger had a mental illness isn’t helping.
Ugh thank you for pointing all that out. As someone who is a full proponent of destigmatizing mental illness, it infuriates me that people don’t understand the difference between blaming the mental illness versus a mental illness predisposing someone to violent tendencies. Or one had violent tendencies which further amplified their mental illness. We are not blaming the mental illness, it acknowledging the mental illness had a role in their behavior.
He was definitely a misogynist, no doubt about that.
according to this article, however, he was also being treated by multiple therapists- according to the family lawyer.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/santa-barbara-killer-began-stabbing-home/story?id=23853918
Was he a misogynist? yes. Does this prove that there is an unhealthy and dangerous societal view of women? Yes. But this case also highlights the downfalls of our health care and police systems.
There are three problems here, not just one.
Reblogged this on Dead Wild Roses and commented:
Watch in the comments section as dudes bring out gems “like Not All Men are Like That” and “MRA’s are about Equality not Misogyny”. All to the riff of that Women are somehow responsible for the problems of Men.
you are such cancer.
@J
Thank you, your opinion is noted. Carry on brave manosphere warrior 🙂
Reblogged this on A Black Feminista.
This article is glorious. Although, in comment to your edit about Aspergers: after reviewing and analyzing his YouTube videos, Elliot Rodger showcased classic symptoms of that degree of autism. And while, no, it does not predispose those affected to violence, it is a factor (not an excuse) in what he did. This toxic cocktail of affluence and emotional disconnect is most definitely attached to the cause of why he was so incredibly pathetic.
This article was written by a complete idiot. She seems to have purposely falsified and omitted facts and her theories are a complete stretch. Another fools’ fool folks.
I believe … each and everyone of us live in our own little world… and that it is a shame when our world “hurts” those around us… especially … those we don’t “know”…Personally, I am of the belief that this poor young man had more issues than we will ever know…and as a woman, I have always felt fear when intimidated, but not just by males, by anyone of size…but that’s just me… my heart goes out to the “families” ….
To me the entire debate about the young man’s diagnosis, previous medication, red flags etc. is unnecessary, even if it’s fascinating to engage in. Anyone who chooses to murder based on (possibly imaginary) romantic rejections is obviously, seriously deranged. In what ordered mind is that a reason to kill people?
The act is the evidence. Maybe YOU don’t know he was mentally ill.
He did it because he is alone, no one else can truly understand how it would feel to be alone, his perception of the world is not the same as the majority of you,
Elliot Rodger was mentally ill – he was diagnosed with Asperger’s syndrome at a young age. That in no way explains nor excuses what he did. People with any form of autism rarely become violent. It is clear there were other things going on. His therapist and his family did notify the authorities that they were afraid he was going to do something terrible. My question – why didn’t his parents go get him – it is not like they lived on another continent – just a couple hours away in Hollywood.
There are many things coming at play that causes such extreme state of mind. Men are good and women are good by nature; however turn on the TV or watch an average movie and notice the gender relations and what we now accept as ‘normal’or ok?? Watch the so call talk shoes/live shows? All these of course now accessible to all chindren easter, cheaper, then the caring, nurturing council, and support, of an emotionally healthy or healing adult. How can I make à différence now towards closest young person in my life. The ripple effect!
My love to hurting souls and families.
I am sorry. Prayers to you, strength and solidarity.
This article spouts all the judgements, stereotypes, and hypocritical thinking that real feminism tries to stop. It’s sad that people like the writer of this article claim to be “feminists”. Her short-sighted, ignorant, and outlandish claims (about the killer, and about men’s rights groups, although I certainly don’t support either of them) show the same ignorant thinking that goes into the demeaning treatment of women in our society.
Frankly, the writer is a hypocrite of the highest order, without any sense of perspective or self-reflection. The idea seems to be “I hate how men act, I hate their assumptions and their ignorance, so I’m going to act the exact same way that they do”… that’s just sad.
Writers like this one, and their articles, are the reason feminism (or maybe this warrants the term “tumblr feminism”) is seen as a joke by so much of society. People writing these articles are crippling the feminist movement.
All I can say is please stop and think before you release these articles. You’re the reason feminism isn’t making real, rational, measurable progress.
Aspergers did make Rodgers far more vulnerable to what ever his group was teaching. That being said, it’s unfair to lump all MRAs under an umbrella of negativity. Like the feminist movement there are good & bad ppl involved. Men’s issues of equality & gender oppression do exist. Rodgers was obviously not concerned with any of these issues if he was solely driven to make women sleep with him. Had he been equipped with proper therapy he wld’ve known that his short comings with women was probably a result of his Aspergers & not a personal attack from women.
I agree with this article on several points, his views on women and his sense of entitlement most likely came from his environment (i.e., surrounding himself with MRAs). Being bombarded with those disgusting mysogynstic messages contributed to his behaviors and belief system. However, the lack of nuance about other contributing factors (mental illness, neurodevolpmental illness, access to guns, parental influences, etc) further contributes to misunderstanding of the aforementioned possible factors. We cannot reduce these types of horrific crimes to a single factor (e.g., influence from MRA groups) because it is always more complicated than one factor. Such as: did he have a predisposition to violent behavior, did he exhibit previous sociopathic tendencies, what type of violence was he exposed to while growing up, how did his lack of a social support system contribute to his resentment and eventual rage, and can we learn anything from this incident to prevent other tradiegies?
To soley blame MRAs is the equvilent of only blaming violent media on mass shootings. I am NOT condoning any message, action or anything for that matter in relation to MRAs. They are absolutely disgusting and one could argue they are more dangerous than neo-nazis in the acceptability of the MRAs messages.
Elliot has a whole manifesto written which was inspired by feminist founder Valerie Solanas’s book “S.C.U.M. Manifesto” in which she called for the extermination of all men through the uprising of feminism.
Both manifestos the same amount of hatred in them. Elliot obviously learned this type of hatred from the feminist movement since they preceded him.
It’s a no brainer to blame this one on feminism. File this one under “M” for “misandry” once again.
Yet thousands of people read The Anarchist’s Cookbook and there was only one Unabomber.
I really hope that your comment was some bad attempt at satire.
Otherwise, correlation doesn’t imply causation, brah.