He doesn’t hate women.
Above and beyond everything else, he wants you to know this: he does not hate women.
He has two daughters, for god’s sake, and a wife that he adores beyond anything else, and a sister that he texts every day and a mother who is the strongest person that he’s ever known – yes, stronger than any of the men he’s met. So don’t think that this is because he hates women.
If anything, his real problem is loving women too much.
See, he just wants his daughters to grow up safe and happy. And to be honest, some of the things that you’re saying – that these feminists are saying – are troubling to him.
He just wants to have a sort of academic chat. Peer to peer. Grownup to grownup. That’s all. He’s not saying you’re wrong – not by a long shot! He just wants you to explain a few things. He’s a reasonable, logical man, and he’s only asking for what any reasonable, logical person would want: proof.
After all, if you’re going to call yourself a feminist, you should be willing to back that belief up with facts, right?
And if you’ve got all the facts, it should be easy enough to convince him, shouldn’t it?
And after all, how is he supposed to understand anything if you won’t educate him?
He just wants so badly to understand.
If you don’t mind, could you start by providing him with some kind empirical data that women continue to suffer from systematic oppression? He doesn’t care about the past, and doesn’t want a history lesson. He wants to talk about the here and now. And from what he can see in the here and now, women are doing pretty well. Just look at you! Smart, well-educated, pretty. What about your gender could you possibly imagine has ever held you back? If anything, it’s probably done you a few favours!
He wonders if, for instance, you knew that there are now more women in post-secondary institutions than men? Gee, it sure seems like being a woman has benefited you in that regard!
He wonders if knew that more men were killed on the job than women, or that more men died violent deaths than women.
He wonders if you were aware that the rate of suicide was higher for men than for women.
He wonders if you even care about men, the way that he cares so much about women.
When you bring up the wage gap, he tells you that women make less because they work, on average, fewer hours. He tells you that men receive bonuses for doing more hazardous work, which skews the numbers. He tells you that the wage gap isn’t based on discrimination, but rather on mitigating factors that you obviously haven’t taken into consideration.
When you bring up rape and domestic violence statistics, he tells you that of course he’s sympathetic to female victims, but then asks why you didn’t mention male victims. He ponders aloud how interesting it is, the fact that you focus so much on women and seem to care so little about men. Don’t you think that men are victims of rape and domestic violence too? Have you ever thought about the fact that men’s numbers might be so much lower because stigma prevents so many victims from reporting their attacks? When a woman is raped or beaten, she’s treated with kindness and pity, but if it happens to a man, well, you can only imagine the comments about his masculinity and sexuality. And there are no men’s shelters for male victims of domestic abuse, there are no workshops for men to learn how to defend themselves against rapists. So wouldn’t you say that men actually have it worse with regards to these issues?
He doesn’t like the term “victim-blaming,” because, well, he finds that people use it when they want to escape the consequences of their actions. The thing is, if you’re a young girl out drinking and partying with the boys, he’s sure we all know that certain things might happen. Of course any rapist is a terrible person and deserves to be punished, but. Well. Women need to practice risk management, don’t they? If we know that rapists exist (and we do), then logically why would women make certain choices that would increase their risk of being raped? Rapists are monsters and we can’t change that, but women can certainly do their part to make sure that they stay safe.
After all, if someone’s house is robbed because they didn’t lock their door, we acknowledge that locking the door could have prevented the crime, don’t we? We don’t hold the person whose house was robbed to be completely blameless just because in a perfect world crimes would never be committed, do we?
Or to put it another way, when we drive cars, we wear seat belts, not because we think that we are bad drivers, but because we can’t control what other people on the road might do.
He wants his daughters to dress and behave modestly because although he trusts them, he can’t trust other people. That’s not victim-blaming, that’s just common sense.
He asks if you think that his daughters should serve as collateral damage for some point you are trying to prove.
He asks why it’s fine to put his daughter’ lives at risk for your so-called feminist principles.
He asks why you would want his daughters to dress and act like sluts – wouldn’t you rather they attract boys with their brains and character rather than their looks?
You see, it’s not that he hates women – not at all. He cares a great deal – obviously more than you do – about their health and safety. He wants his daughters to marry men who treat them well – men who hold open doors, men who pull out chairs, men who treat women as the exalted creatures that they are. He tells you that women – all women – deserve nothing less than this, because they are better, kinder, sweeter people than men. Women are stronger than men, he says – how else could they endure childbirth? Women are more nurturing and loving than men, he says – that’s why for thousands of years they’ve stayed home with the children while the men were out providing for the family.
Why would you want to deny his daughters all these wonderful qualities of womanhood and femininity?
Why would you want his daughters to be more like men, who are so obviously the lesser sex in so many regards?
You bring up the way that we as a society perpetuate and reinforce traditional gender roles; he counters with anecdotes about little boys being naturally interested in trucks, while little girls gravitate towards dolls and cooking sets.
You bring up the extreme beauty standards that women are held up to; he scoffs and asks if you’ve noticed how attractive the men in Hollywood are. He wonders if you think that women are alone when it comes to having body image issues – do you truly believe that men don’t face the same pressure that women do?
You bring up abortion; he bemoans the fact that men have no say over whether their child, their own flesh and blood, is born.
He uses the term “logical fallacy.”
He uses the term “straw man argument.”
He uses the term “ad hominem attack.”
When you tell him that he is not using any of these terms correctly, he calls that an ad hominem attack.
When you try to end the discussion, he accuses you of being too emotional about this. After all, here he is being all calm and rational, while you seem very, very upset. Here he has sat politely listening to you, presenting some very valid arguments, treating you exactly as he would treat a man, but you can’t seem to handle it. He humbly suggests that, if you cannot have a calm, rational discussion with him, perhaps women are not as equal as you imagine.
He asks why you so enjoy the role of the victim.
He asks why you would want to reduce his smart, competent daughters to victims.
He asks why you want to think of his mother, his brave, strong mother who raised him all on her own, as a victim.
He would never think of women as victims because, unlike you, he does not hate women.
The Belle Jar 
Misogyny is everywhere but I do have an issue with Hollywood types in the ‘no more’ commercials. That is like the big bad wolf with the keys to the victim’s house. My mother is herself and strong in her own way. She suffered miserably at the hands of my own father and thus taught me to listen. (to women)
Not sure how to make an original comment on here so heres my reply to the article.
I think this brings up perfectly valid arguments about all that modern feminism entails and just like the person in this blog would like some answers to those questions.
oh but partiarchy mysogyny, oppression, other femenist keyword of the day isn’t a valid answer…
No doubt though I will just receive a bunch of angry replies which do nothing but prove that you have no idea what you are talking about and instead hang onto the thin strings of this passing fad and try and make yourself seem smarter than you are.
back when we got our right to vote and all the years and accomplishments up to the present — that isn’t a passing fad. that is the abolishing of slavery in progress. I am puzzled why anyone wouldn’t want a nation of free people.
Some ideas are coded as if they mean something tangible.
Yes, the passing fad of women fighting off their oppressors, documented since about the 1800’s. You scared little patriarchal oppressors and defenders of misogyny are really funny 😀 (See what I did there? :D)
Does he have empirical data supporting his suggestion that the rest of the female population thinks of themselves or view his mother and his daughters as victims? I was never contacted for the survey. I would like to see his facts. I don’t intend to live the rest of my life as a victim so I don’t see myself as one, all thanks to feminism. Had I listened to the feminists and believed their message that I had worth and like a fish did not need a bicycle, I would have avoided an abusive marriage and empowered myself long ago. Great post.
Spot on.
I can’t find the comment box, so am just going to reply to a comment instead 🙂
It really is spot on. And when I see a beautifully written post like this I hope against hope against hope that no cretinous clowns will post horribly embarrassing and ironic comments fully proving the author’s point. And yet they always, always do 😦
This is also a good article on how it is NOT women’s jobs to explain feminism to men and some of the ridiculously entitled mansplaining comments go to prove the author’s point there too.
http://feministcurrent.com/8098/feminists-are-not-responsible-for-educating-men/#comment-164496
Reblogged this on Have a Heart of Fire; Have a Heart of Gold and commented:
Oh my GOD she’s been talking to the same doods I’ve been talking to! This is perfection.
Reblogged this on Women are Everything.
One of the best pieces I’ve read on women in a long time, including my own. Your piece is genius. I’ve re-blogged it, putting it on Facebook and plan on reading it again. Thank You Belle!
Oh, this is nasty. Great write. Thanks.
Reblogged this on Iconography ♠ Incomplete and commented:
Any woman or man can relate to this in both categories. The so-called calm and rational man is being “logically abusive” saying things that actually put two sexes and genders in conflict with one another. Contradictory statements like this dissolve individualism and uses collective reasoning as drone mentality. There can be collectively but they are not so wound tightly; they are semi permeable you can breathe in them.
Reblogged this on Melissa Fong and commented:
More reasons to be against the Men’s Rights movement and understand that Feminism addresses everything we need to fix about gender inequity.
I can’t tell you how much I appreciate and identify with your experiences and sentiments. Thank you.
Clever writing. A brave approach, and it works.
Reblogged this on vacantpenguin and commented:
Perfect
This is so accurate. I have had these same conversations many times. I love how you’ve written this.
Even reading this made me so mad at every single person – because I’ve heard all this come out of women’s mouths as well (I work in a church) – “Well, I guess it’s okay if YOU have all these problems, but as a woman, none of this really bothers me…..I’m fine with only referring to God as Father…….” – Thanks for so eloquently articulating such inane, self-righteous dribble we hear all the time – then get blamed & belittled for thinking it’s all OUR problem….
Reblogged this on From the Tree.
Exactly.
If we as women defend ourselves as victims, isn’t that a little bit hypocritical in feminist theory? If we want to be equals with men, we have to first see ourselves as equals with men. Care to check out my blog? http://Www.downwiththenorm.wordpress.com
If a victim stands up for herself instead of allowing herself to be victimized, is she less than a man? Would a man just allow it to happen? Would a man not rail against his abusers?
No, I don’t care to check out your blog. Would love that blog spruiking, spammy pointless comment removed actually. Accepting that women have been attacked, oppressed and abused by some men throughout history is to not deny the facts. Fighting their attacks is the right thing to do. And we will keep doing it despite efforts to tone police and shut us down.
We were discussing this since I was in college the FIRST time in ’74 and continued during the “great feminist theological debates” of the ’80s and….here we go Again….oh geez
This was very entertainingly written. I confess, even as a woman, because I wasn’t exposed to feminism until college, I made some of the same arguments against my own sex. Changing worldviews meant accepting a total upheaval of the way I saw the world.
It’s so awful and burdensome that so many men are curious about feminism and want to learn more about it, despite carrying with them some unfortunate misconceptions. Obviously the most constructive way to deal with these men is to be dismissive and hostile towards them because god forbid an expert in a field be burdened with the responsibility of having to educate people about their area of expertise.
Stop. Just stop. It’s not as if feminists are the sole repository of information about feminism–or anything else for that matter. Men can learn the same way we learn–by seeking out authors and blogs and experiences and stories. By listening and educating themselves. And, on top of alllllll that, these men–the men of the post, the men feminists run into every minute of every damn day–are not the least bit interested in learning or dialogue. Couching patriarchy and misogyny in concern trolling and smiling passive aggressiveness is not trying to be educated–it is, as usual, trying to control and marginalize. Want to know the answers? Seek them out. Want to be a jagweed? Go somewhere else. I’m even exhausted at having to write this comment.
“Stop. Just stop. It’s not as if feminists are the sole repository of information about feminism”
Unless you want people learning feminist theory from non-feminists and anti-feminists… Yes, they are.
word.
ever heard of wikipedia? it’s a thing now. Anyone asking such questions without taking 5 minutes to google this stuff isn’t actually interested in learning, they’re interested in starting an argument. And yes, I’m a man, and yes, I actually researched feminism when I wanted to know more about it. I’m a big proponent of radical feminism (wikipedia it – it doesn’t mean what you think it means). Your argument is basically like talking to an astrophysicist and then saying ‘but don’t you think its more plausible that a supreme being created the entire universe in 7 earth rotations six thousand earth years ago? And then accused his response of belittling you.
Thanks Marlon.
If people were truly interested in learning, they’d absorb the information without being passive aggressive or trying to explain why THEIR view is the right one.
Plus, you don’t learn by badgering people for information. If you were actually interested in learning, you’d actively seek information by yourself. Not ask someone to tell you everything, that’s just silly. There’s plenty of information to absorb without pushing your misconceptions onto the person trying to educate you, effectively trying to shut them down.
Here’s a useful cartoon which you desperately need to read and assimilate. http://www.robot-hugs.com/but-men/
And an excellent article on why it is absolutely not a feminist’s responsibility to educate men. http://feministcurrent.com/8098/feminists-are-not-responsible-for-educating-men/#comment-164529
Be careful, making ridiculous comments on that site of the sort you just made will be treated exactly as they deserve. Men are treated equally on that blog, when they talk total nonsense nobody coddles them. You won’t like that.
Thank you! I don’t fully understand how it is that someone can care about feminism enough to engage someone in a debate and then refuse to provide evidence to back up their arguments. Unfortunately, it seems like a lot of people are more interested in antagonizing others than actually helping them understand the heart of the issues.
Half of the world has this mindset that that what is, is what has always been and what must be. They see the world in still photographs and they do not see processes and interactions. The ones who would say these things seem to have a split core belief. They see things simultaneously that this is the way it is, so this is how we must behave and also this is the way it is, so it doesn’t matter how we behave, and we have no responsibility for the way things are. Nothing should change, because then their creed, their community, and most importantly, their caregivers must have been wrong – and that is unthinkable.
Tone perfect! Thanks.
Reblogged this on Note To Self.
Oh. My. God. This is so powerful. It’s amazing that in 2014, almost nothing has changed with sexism. Gender roles are so rigid and even some women refuse to branch out of the roles that for thousands of years we’ve been forced to abide by. Society tells women what we must be, no matter how much we’ve supposedly moved forward. Every man should read this and realize that their arugments against feminism are ridiculous.
MissMaddie95, where to you see that Belle advised that women defend themselves as victims. No, wait? What does “defend ourselves as victims” even mean? Do you think that calling people out for victim-blaming is the same as celebrating our right to be victims? If so, it’s possible that you need to learn a little bit more about what we mean by “victim-blaming.” And, in answer to what I think maybe your question meant, I can’t answer for Belle, of course, but no, I don’t think that it runs contrary to the tenets of feminism to say that if a woman is attacked, we should blame her attacker rather than telling her that it’s her fault that someone else decided to attack her.
Mclea, it’s so unfortunate that there are so few ways for people who are genuinely curious to learn about feminism. It’s really sad that nobody’s created a a Feminism 101 site,* written any books about women’s issues,** that research on women’s issues is so very obscure and difficult to come by; *** and that our (predominantly) male interlocutors clearly have no access to major search engines, libraries, equity offices, or women’s studies courses, and are therefore compelled by cruel necessity to quiz every. single. individual. feminist. they encounter in their relentless quest for basic education.
* http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/; http://www.feminism101.com/; http://www.redletterpress.org/feminism101.html; http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Feminism_101
** http://www.chapters.indigo.ca/books/product/9781580052016-item.html?s_campaign=goo-PLATest&gclid=CMndl7a74LwCFc1hfgodWkoACA; http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2012/06/22/504090/an-introductory-feminist-reading-list/#; anything by Gerda Lerner
*** http://www.swc-cfc.gc.ca/index-eng.html; http://www.law-lib.utoronto.ca/diana/; http://www.un.org/womenwatch/
Well said 🙂
Yes.
Siiiiiiiiggggghhhhh. Very loooonnnng sigh.
Reblogged this on The Curious Alouette! and commented:
We all know this guy…
Yet another brilliant piece that captures what being an out feminist can really be like in this “better world”. Thank you! from a woman who envisioned much greater progress than this 35+ years ago.
This piece is far more confrontational than necessary and I question the real desire of the author to have an open and frank discussion about female equality. I think women should be proactive in protecting themselves and being smart about what they wear and the places they go. Male rape is epidemic and sadly under-reported, so do not accuse all feminists of not caring about it, simply because the media chooses not to cover it. But most importantly, there are high ranking officials in the world who still feel it is appropriate and “natural”, like this individual – http://www.patheos.com/blogs/progressivesecularhumanist/2014/02/ugandan-minister-for-ethics-integrity-says-men-raping-girls-is-natural/ . Once we no longer have monsters like this running countries in the world, then we’ll have time to discuss the other inequities of the world.
The PIECE is too confrontational. That’s hilarious. This piece does nothing except say what men tell feminists. They’re not the blogger’s thoughts. If the post is too confrontational, it’s because of the arguments put forth by the oponents to feminism, not because of the author!
And how is any of it inaccurate? as a man I am waiting for your response, someone linked this on my facebook and until I got to the bottom and noticed all the feminazi comments I was actually 100% in agreeance with the article because as far as I can tell it has good counters to every feminazi statement.
Yeah, but unless she’s naming names, she’s attacking a strawman, (and she has cleverly covered her bases by having her strawman attack her for using a strawman). If you throw all of the most assholish tropes together in a single post, sure, the hypothetical person is going to come across as an asshole. To say that they’re not the blogger’s thoughts is incredibly disingenuous, because she’s the one who wrote them. They’re not quotes.
There is not a monolithic consensus on what feminism is, and some people out there might ACTUALLY want honest discussion. “What does feminism mean to you?” If every attempt at honest discussion is repulsed, or if any curious man is assumed to be like this strawman, then men might assume that all feminists believe what straw feminists believe, which is incredibly harmful. “See feminists really just hate men and don’t want to have a discussion!?” Encouraging that sort of attitude is counterproductive if the actual goal is to engage in a large-scale cultural shift in favor of women, women’s rights and equality.
Feminism means very different things to different women. Making bold unilateral statements on behalf of a group is dangerous and balkanizing, because those groups might not have as monolithic a set of beliefs as the person making the claim. Consider for a moment in the gay community, choice over born this way. I cannot remember her name off the top of my head, but an actress came out as a lesbian a few years back, and stated that it was, for her, a choice. She was shouted down by those who asserted that it was not a choice, to which she (rightly countered) “Who are you to define MY sexual identity?”
Not all feminists believe what the blogger here believes. That doesn’t make her wrong. That doesn’t make them wrong. But if someone tries to engage you for your opinion, engage them earnestly. Consider that their opinions are just as important to them as yours are to you. If the person is rude about it, sure, tell them to fuck off, but trying to reach some kind, any kind, of understanding ought to be a benchmark to be worked toward.
Our Tones actually believes most of this, so while you *could* see it as confrontational, he has explicitly and/or implicitly said all of these things. It’s impossible to have an open discussion with someone who cannot, will not, even consider the other point of view.
As to rape culture, that’s bullshit. What I wear isn’t going to change a rapist’s mind if I’m the nearest available target. But that’s beside the point. I should be able to walk home, alone, at any time of the day or night, regardless of my gender or outfit. That goes for us girls, and the boys. It comes down to rapists rape – attacks don’t happen in the middle of the night because it’s the middle of the night – they happen because there is no-one else around to stop it happening. (Well der, if you’re going to do something shitty, you don’t want witnesses, do you?)
She isn’t accusing feminists of not caring about male rape, TONY is. Best misdirection tactic in the obfuscation handbook. “You’re claiming to be a minority while ignoring another minority – HOW COULD YOU?”. Well, actually, we’re not, but if feminists were here to fight every goddamn battle, we’d be…a political party. Blerk. No thanks.
Reblogged this on outspoken. and commented:
While my area of knowledge is sexual violence rather than feminism (although they are obviously closely related), this piece sums up the frustration I often feel when conversing about sexual violence with people.
Reblogged this on Modern Sex Culture and commented:
One day, I hope to write as well as The Belle Jar.
For the first time, I came across such a mature take on the role of feminism on empowering women vs trying to suppress men. Why isn’t there male-ism if there is feminism. If what we are looking for is equality of sexes then ‘feminism’ only hinders the process of brining it about. Very good post indeed.
Eh? You must have been reading some pretty bizarre articles if someone is trying to suppress men. Hint, not allowing men to rape you without arguing about it, not allowing men to oppress you without standing up to them, not allowing men to receive unearned and undeserved privilege is in no way “suppressing” them. You probably meant oppressing. And it’s not that either.
The worst: the condescending ‘women are a treasure’ chauvinist. You’ll note that his “ignorance” is its own form of “playing victim.” — which paradoxically informs his incredulous Pollyanna routine as pertains to the victimization of minoritized classes. I don’t even bother to engage him anymore. I think he gets a perverse sexual pleasure from the exchange. Starve it, starve him. Kill him, kill a cliche.
PS — You still up for a live Tarot reading with me? Let me know if so, and if not, no worries. It would be fun to have you. 🙂
I’ve been reading a lot about Glick and Fiske’s Ambivalent Sexism Theory in preparation for my thesis. Their Benevolent aspect of sexism is one way to explain the “women are a treasure” view that I think makes a lot of sense, especially because it seems (from loads of research done over the past 10-20 years) that such a form of sexism is more palatable to women and is one way of explaining how so many women serve to maintain and defend sexism against their own gender.
Reblogged this on I Didn't Just Wake Up This Morning with a Craving and commented:
I have had this exact conversation. Multiple times.
‘Maleism’ – equivalent would be femaleism. Feminism equivalent would masculism. We don’t have masculism for the same reason we don’t have a white rights movement. Are you going to apply the same logic to racism, ablism, ageism. Maybe we don’t have equality yet because all these movements are in their infancy and there are people, like you, blaming movements for calling out inequality and seeking to address it.
Wise women need to prepare themselves for this type of discussion. What’s important to understand here is that, for this guy, it’s NOT ABOUT THE ISSUE. It’s all about WINNING THE ARGUMENT … about sending the message: “I’m right and you’re wrong.”
Guys like this get their jollies by dominating others (men as well as women) through argument. The aim is to make the other person look small or stupid. In a sense, he lays a trap, then, through a series of loaded questions, guides you into it. The actual issue could be anything: climate change, the economy, the moral standing of Tiger Woods.
Of course, logic, argument and analysis are important, but they mostly engage the head, not the heart. They also form the core of the adversarial approach towards idea exploration. The discussion that results from all this misses out on the very things we need in dealing with complex, contemporary issues: collaboration, intuition, empathy, taking a holistic view.
If you find yourself getting drawn into this type of argument, and there’s a distinct smell of misogyny in the air, our advice is to steer the discussion away from his preferred adversarial style and towards a collaborative style that also involves the heart, not just the head.
For example, place his daughter in a hypothetical situation involving, say, harassment on public transport or discrimination in the workplace, and say, “What could we do to prevent this situation from occurring in reality?” Saying ‘we’ puts you both on the same side, and placing his daughter in ‘danger’ will (hopefully) elicit some sort of empathic response. Now you have started a different type of conversation which, by the way, you are leading instead of him.
Another approach is to broaden the discussion to include the treatment of women around the world. Ask him for his views on honour killings … on acid attacks … on widows being denied their land, etc.
The best outcome you can achieve from this discussion is to leave this guy with a more balanced view of the position women currently occupy. After all, if wise women are to save the world, they will firstly have to save a few guys like this. Don’t set out to ‘win the argument’ … set out to create an ally.
Or, shut the mansplaining, minimising, deflecting, derailer down immediately, do not allow him to comment at all, if you can’t prevent that continue to point out that you know what he is doing and that he needs to shut up and go away and that if he wants to rant and froth about the menz he can go to the many thousands of articles out there on the male pov and keep dragging the conversation back on point against his will.
Hint, tone policing women is unhelpful. Men like that won’t be changed and don’t want to be. This is a great article on why it is in no way a feminist’s responsibility to educate men on feminism.
http://feministcurrent.com/8098/feminists-are-not-responsible-for-educating-men/#comment-164529
Thank you for this. My father is that man who lays traps and wants to make people feel small and dominated. He is also a sociopath and it’s all a game to him to get a rise out of me. He will never see my point of view. I don’t have any contact with him anymore and have never depended on him. It’s very hard to explain to someone how he made me feel, but this is perfect.
I don’t see the point this post is trying to make. Yes there are those types of guys out there, those who call themselves MRA usually. This post seems to suggest that feminism doesn’t have the answers for those questions. Does this mean feminism can’t stand up to the scrutiny of logic?
So the fact that in one paragraph he calls all women who stand up against rape “playing victims,” then says his daughters won’t get raped because they are strong and dress conservatively, then says that men get raped too, then says women are too emotional to have a logical conversation, despite him flip flopping from the notion that women should be treasured, all the way to women are too irrational, doesn’t wave a couple red flags in his “logic?” You really have no issue with him saying the exact opposite of what he just said no less than 4 times in one conversation? And you call it logic?
I can’t remember the last time a strawman came at me armed to the teeth with empirical data, crime statistics and studies. Mystical haunted scythe, yes, but not logic and empirical data.
Yeah, I agree, the message of the post is kind of odd. Maybe the author feels that while feminism CAN stand up to scrutiny, merely asking for evidence and thinking critically is itself wrong? I don’t know. Either way, I don’t think these sorts of attitudes are doing the movement any favors.
I have had the conversation described in this post so many times, and it has yet to become less frustrating and depressing. Thank you for articulating this and providing space for dialogue.
Reblogged this on Daisy-Belle Blogs… and commented:
THIS. This is the kind of resistance to acknowledge inherent, structural sexism that is so hard to fight against as it’s completely exhausting…
I think you forgot the part where he insists that the rigid gender roles we force little boys into are everyone’s fault, and equally harmful to men as the gender roles we push on women.
Beautifully expressed.
Thank you!
Straight male ally. Wise Women Will Save the World has an excellent approach; and she’s dead on that usually, this kind of person just wants to engage in the in-person equivalent of trolling: patronizing, faulty logic, hidden ad hominems. Best thing is either collaboration or total disengagement, depending on how dickish the person is.
The one counterpoint I’d throw in: Of the above troll-arguments skewered by our host, the one I’m most tired of is the ‘lock your doors for robbery.’ I’ve started using arson or getting hit by a drunk driver while stopped at a red light as alternate analogies. You leave your house to go to work; some unknown person shows up mid-day, pours gas around your house, and burns it to the ground. Nobody’s going to say: ‘Well, why’d you go to work at your job that day?’ It’s an everyday activity. (Same deal with getting hit by a drunk driver while stopped at a red light.) While fully acknowledging that most rapes are committed by acquaintances, it at least re-orients the debate away from the nasty ‘well, people can do things to prevent robberies!’ line of attack.
Reblogged this on Gillian Sonin.
The only thing I can actually fathom from his perspective are the semantics of shame, ism and phobia–but even in that respect, he shoots himself in the foot. I feel like a lot of these well to-do’ers have the potential to engage in some dialogue that’d be beneficial in establishing the problems of radical feminism but they ultimately devalue themselves in clinging to patriarchal notions without contemplating opening their minds. It’d also be interesting to read an article of a male feminist trying to substantiate his beliefs against the grain of a radical female feminist–ignorance is either side, in either form. The need to differentiate between contrarianism, personal preference and outright shaming, trying to force beliefs on others, is manifest.
Jesus Christ, that sounds like me half a year ago…
Well, why won’t you all and the author educate yourselves about feminism? It gets exhausting when the onus is repeatedly placed on women to present the “data and facts” for men on this topic. The very nature of this article and the loud, condescending tone it adopts to speak to a woman is a beautiful demonstration and, ironically, the authors precious proof, of how, indeed, gender discrimination is still very much alive and kicking in many areas of our culture, just as in some areas it is not.
The topic of feminism and the gender divide is simply not one that relies fundamentally on “empirical data” (which is an oxymoron if I’ve ever read one) and “evidence” for it to be true. Anyone suggesting it does is looking at the issue the wrong way. Period. Some topics and issues (such as someone on trial for fraud) do rely on evidence to prove its truth. This, however, is a complicated issue, like racism, that wears many difference faces, often hidden behind masks, and cannot be told it does or doesn’t exist based on lack of statistics. Just because there isn’t sufficient evidence to show that women don’t get paid the same salary in certain positions, does that mean it doesn’t happen and we can’t get upset about it? A man in Afghanistan is found “not guilty” for beating his wife, yet a law ACTUALLY EXISTS where the woman is forbidden from calling on her parents, children, friends and relatives as witnesses to testify for her. Tell me, what chance did she really have? Or is this not evidence enough for you, sir? Proving gender discrimination still exists very much relies on empirical evidence, and since I have to define what it means since the author misunderstands, gathering something empirically means gathering from their observations and experiences, personal/first hand or otherwise. This author refuses to acknowledge this or the very vulnerable position he thrusts a woman into for HIS sake, in this case, of understanding. Reality check: as women growing up under a patriarchy, asking her to present “proof” for her argument, she will intrinsically turn to her experiences -of which we have many – and by nature of the discussion, it can be a difficult and emotional one for many women to engage in, especially when those experiences are countered repeatedly with a man’s hypothetical, detached scenario.
But then we must do as we are told. We must live up to the expectation of bending over backwards psychologically for his insatiable desire to better his understanding. Above all else, we can’t have a woman losing her cool. Oh no. She must “calmly”, “rationally” and complacently adhere to his request instead of him opening the god damn news paper, reading articles, blogs, listening to stories and contemplating the complex issue that is gender inequality for himself. She must not get ANGRY when she hears the preposterous claim that gender inequality is a thing of the past as though lack of concrete evidence and statistics washes it from existence. Or when she is told to better equip herself with facts if she wants to call herself a feminist. She must not express deep frustration when she is, yet again, slapped in the face with this continued expectation men have of women yielding to their every request to satisfy their immediate needs. She must behave, comply and respond with rationality and reason if she is to participate in academic discussions with a man, “peer to peer, grow up to grow up”. She must hold her breath even when she witnesses a culture – HER culture – perpetuate misogyny, masculine authority, and prejudicial gender views and take it easy when she continues to find it subliminally imbedded in the minds of young men (and women!) before her. She must not f-u-c-k-i-n-g lose it when a man creates the terms by which she must respond and is denied the ability to call upon history to reinforce the present situation, as though the pain from past suffering doesn’t hold any god damn relevance.
But it’s tempting to be the nice little feminist who patiently spends her valuable time and energy explaining things in a polite and calm manner, who gently nurtures the men in her life on their path to self discovery.
The burden of education is on you, not on women. If a man is genuinely interested in the topic and want to have a discussion about it? Good for him; all sarcasm aside I’m happy to hear it. But I’ll talk to him straight, ‘man to man’: instead of petulantly waiting for a chick to enlighten you with the basics, get off your lazy ass and do it yourself. Until this is realized, maybe then we can begin to talk sense, or better yet, change.
So don’t tell women to calm down. To stop acting like a bunch of victims, explain ourselves, comply to your terms and to be nice about it. We’re angry and have every right to be. Educate yourself, it’s no one else’s duty but your own. Stop evading responsibility and take some time to listen to just some of the many voices of oppression and you may just find out why you should be angry, too.
WORD!
Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.
The definition of Feminism. Since none of you seem to understand that it means equal, not superior rights.
Now.
Here’s where I fill in a few gaps in your oh so lacking education.
Where is the chart about how most victims of sexual abuse ARE women? Where are the charts that show that most cases of physical violence in the case of the home are WOMEN? If it were half and half, absolutely. If this were split down the middle, I’d accept your “Think of all the men who suffered so greatly for us!”
Think of the women raped in the Military who are afraid to speak up thanks to men having the handlebars. Vs. the men who are raped in the military. Think on the tailhook scandal. I am not saying it doesn’t happen to men, but the first to say it aloud was just this year, a great bit of progress. Does this just mean women are more bold than men? Absolutely not – in the military, all are treated equally. Unless you are a woman.
While there are bad eggs in both sexes (and frankly, any woman who lies about being raped should go to jail for the same period of time as the ‘rapist’ did), it is NOT a majority. There are SO many unreported cases that filter out, or detectives that question too much, leading anyone to back out of their prior confession.
Think of the women in the middle east who have to cover everything because God forbid, a man cannot control his urge over seeing her sexy, sexy elbow. In which she is at fault. It’s her fault for wearing such a short skirt. What, you couldn’t say no? You are implying that men have a lack of willpower so stunning that it compares only to wild animals.
So no, it seems you hate men AND women equally with this article. Women, for implying they do not deserve equal treatment, and when they get raped (as one in four women will during their lifetime, over a third of those before their eighteenth birthday) we should think of the men who get raped as well (1 in 21 are raped by women; 3% have said they were raped by other men). Doesn’t exactly look equal, does it? For sake of argument, we will cut out the prison rape scenarios (a staggering amount go unreported, and this happens to both sexes, male on male and female on female). That means, in a group study of 100 women, 33 of them have been rape victims, and of those, 11 are CHILDREN. Of that same study group, 21 men have confessed to being raped by women, where 5 of them have been forcibly raped by men.
But under this article’s argument, we should consider that girls need to dress more properly? AGAIN. WHY should we have to? I have seen men with open shirts, with tight pants on the club floor, and never thought in my LIFE, “In those pants he’s TOTALLY asking for it.”
Now, this does not mean I approve of what happens with ANY man, and NO ONE should be forced. (And frankly, the prison system needs to clean up their act with all of this going under the radar).
Now, let’s discuss the pay rate.
The gender wage gap is a study collected by the Census Bureau, not some average run of the mill group.
“In 2010 the median income of FTYR workers was $42,800 for men, compared to $34,700 for women. The female-to-male earnings ratio was 0.81, slightly higher than the 2008 ratio. The female-to-male earnings ratio of 0.81 means that, in 2009, female FTYR workers earned 19% less than male FTYR workers. The statistic does not take into account differences in experience, skill, occupation, education or hours worked, as long as it qualifies as full-time work. However, in 2010, an economist testified to the U.S. Congress Joint Economic Committee that studies “always find that some portion of the wage gap is unexplained” even after controlling for measurable factors that are assumed to influence earnings. The unexplained portion of the wage gap is attributed by some to gender discrimination.”
Let me simplify that for you.
FULL TIME WORKERS ARE EARNING LESS. For those of you that said women are working less hours and thus earning less? It’s not true. This includes 32 hours and up.
Okay, let me slip into gender roles here. Let’s say… hm. The average construction worker. A very physical role, encompassed by men. I know I couldn’t do it. How much do they make a year? He averages between 30,000 and 42,000 a year. Not a very livable wage, really. But it’s a start. They can make up to $100,000 if supervisor positions are in sight.
And what’s the most feminine job I can think of? Hmmm… a teacher? I’m avoiding saying full time at a nail salon, as technically that is a retail position. $19,000-$22,000 a year is average. I know my share of male teachers, but it is a predominately male-occupied society.
Okay, so maybe that’s not a fair comparison, and it sort of okays gender roles (gals can be construction workers, cuz holy shit some of those gals scare the crap outta me) and guys can absolutely be teachers (my favorite teacher was my band director – he was hilarious and angry at the same time). Computer technicians. It is something one can do while sitting down, doesn’t require much physical ability, and their mental fortitude needs to be intact – they could graduate from the same college, take the same classes, and get the exact same grades.
The male will earn an average of $51,000 a year.
The woman? Averaging $39,600.
WHOA. Now THERE is a staggering difference.
It doesn’t happen in all walks of society, but in a majority of professions men earn more with a few exceptions (I found a few lists, most overlapped, but the most I could dig up in my research was twenty or so career choices. Most seem to fit into gender stereotypes (bakers, personal appearance workers, teachers and teaching assistants) but some are rather surprising (construction managers, ta daaaah!)
The point is.
THIS is why you need to be educated, you ignorant asshole.
THIS is why we need feminism.
Because there are STILL the guys who can’t take no for an answer, or too drunk for consent.
Because we play the blame game instead of owning up to our own mistakes (she wasn’t asking for it, you just didn’t teach your BOYS to respect women).
Because there is still an inexcusable wage gap.
Because women’s rights are slowly being taken away from them (dozens of laws were passed this year alone making sure that decision making was slowly torn asunder).
Because articles like this are constantly posted, with dozens of comments from women, no less, saying things like “My thoughts exactly!’
I pray for this country when I read things like that – when women are cool with being treated like second hand citizens because some guy says “Why don’t people cry over male rape?”
We do.
We’re just too distracted while we’re being raped bodily and financially.