I don’t have to tell you that Steubenville is all over the news.
I don’t have to tell you that it’s a fucking joke that Trent Mays and Ma’lik Richmond, the two teenagers convicted of raping a sixteen year old girl, were only sentenced to a combined three years in juvenile prison. Each will serve a year for the rape itself; Mays will serve an additional year for “illegal use of a minor in nudity-oriented material.”
I probably don’t even have to tell you that the media treatment of this trial has been a perfect, if utterly sickening, example of rape culture, with its focus on how difficult and painful this event has been for the rapists who raped a sixteen year old girl then bragged about it on social media.
And I almost certainly don’t have to tell you that the world is full of seemingly nice, normal people who want to go to bat for the convicted rapists. I’m quite sure that you already know about the victim-blaming that’s been happening since this case first came to light. You know about the fact that people have actually come out and said that the real lesson to be learned here is that we need to be more careful with social media (i.e. go ahead and rape but make sure you don’t get caught). You already know that people seem to think that being a sports star and having a good academic record should somehow make up for the fact that you are a rapist.
I don’t have to tell you any of that because it’s all par for the course.
What I do want to tell you is that you need to stop using the “wives, sisters, daughters” argument when you are talking to people defending the Steubenville rapists. Or any rapists. Or anyone who commits any kind of crime, violent or otherwise, against a woman.
In case you’re unfamiliar with this line of rhetoric, it’s the one that goes like this:
You should stop defending the rapists and start caring about the victim. Imagine if she was your sister, or your daughter, or your wife. Imagine how badly you would feel if this happened to a woman that you cared about.
Framing the issue this way for rape apologists can seem useful. I totally get that. It feels like you’re humanizing the victim and making the event more relatable, more sympathetic to the person you’re arguing with.
You know what, though? Saying these things is not helpful; in fact, it’s not even helping to humanize the victim. What you are actually doing is perpetuating rape culture by advancing the idea that a woman is only valuable in so much as she is loved or valued by a man.
The Steubenville rape victim was certainly someone’s daughter. She may have been someone’s sister. Someday she might even be someone’s wife. But these are not the reasons why raping her was wrong. This rape, and any rape, was wrong because women are people. Women are people, rape is wrong, and no one should ever be raped. End of story.
The “wives, sisters, daughters” line of argument comes up all the fucking time. President Obama even used it in his State of the Union address this year, saying,
“We know our economy is stronger when our wives, mothers, and daughters can live their lives free from discrimination in the workplace, and free from the fear of domestic violence.”
This device, which Obama has used on more than one occasion, is reductive as hell. It defines women by their relationships to other people, rather than as people themselves. It says that women are only important when they are married to, have given birth to, or have been fathered by other people. It says that women are only important because of who they belong to.
Women are not possessions.
Women are people.
I seriously cannot believe that I have to say this in 2013.
On top of all of this, I want you to think of a few other implications this rhetorical device has. For one thing, what does it say about the women who aren’t anyone’s wife, mother or daughter? What does it say about the kids who are stuck in the foster system, the kids who are shuffled from one set of foster parents to another or else living in a group home? What does it say about the little girls whose mothers surrender them, willingly or not, to the state? What does it say about the people who turn their back on their biological families for one reason or another?
That they deserve to be raped? That they are not worthy of protection? That they are not deserving of sympathy, empathy or love?
And when we frame all women as being someone’s wife, mother or daughter, what are we teaching young girls?
We are teaching them that in order to have the law on their side, they need to be loved by men. That they need to make themselves attractive and appealing to men in order to be worthy of protection. That their lives and their bodily integrity are valueless except for how they relate to the men they know.
The truth is that I am someone’s wife. I am also someone’s mother. I am someone’s daughter, and someone’s sister. But those are not the things that define me, or make me valuable in this world. Those are not the reasons that I should be able to live a life free from rape, sexual assault or any kind of violent crime.
I have value because I am a person. Full stop. End of argument. This isn’t even a discussion that we should be having.
So please, let’s start teaching that fact to the young women in our lives. Teach them that you love, honour and value them because of who they are. Teach them that they should expect to be treated with integrity because it’s a basic human right. Teach them that they do not deserve to be raped because no one ever, ever, ever deserves to be raped.
Above all, teach them that they are people, too.
The Belle Jar 
Thank you.
I agree that in rhetoric uses such as Obama’s the sentence can have the implications that the author of this article points. However, when used in the context of rape, those implications are unwarranted: The sentence in those cases is addressed to potential rapists (i.e. men) in an effort to make them remember that they have important women in their lives who’d they’d hate see being raped by someone else, hopefully preventing rapes. Sure, people should not rape because women are people with rights independently of anything else, but when you are trying to prevent rapes, emotional appeals may have more power than logical ones.
i think a man who rapes doesn’t have respect for any women in his life. He may fear some of them, but I doubt he respects them.
This is such a well written article and i love the fact that you’ve brought out such an important point. I completely agree with you and kudos for writing about it.
I see the point, but I’m not so sure. I wouldn’t know from studies or anything credible, but from what I have seen, people tend not to be as empathetic towards tragedies if they aren’t connected to them. When I hear about a fatal crash on the radio, my immediate reactions is, I hope it’s not someone I know. Within a few minutes I’ve forgotten about the crash. Given that tendency and the intention to raise awareness and emotions around what happened in Steubenville, the “imagine it happened to your…” argument seems like an easy place to go. Not to mention that most of the folks saying that sort of thing are from vulture news agencies fighting to get more attention than their competitors (as appropriately mentioned in the blog). And, I do seem to remember ass faces like Nancy Grace saying “image if it was your son that was shot because he was wearing a hoody” during the Trayvon Martin fiasco. And Mr. Obama himself said something similar if I remember correctly. So, yes, that same argument is used to describe male victims. All that to say, insinuating that the “imagine it happened to your…” argument is “perpetuating rape culture by advancing the idea that a woman is only valuable in so much as she is loved or valued by a man” is quite a stretch. Personally, I think this post would have a lot more clout if it focused on what you said you “didn’t have to explain”. The bigger issues are vulture news agencies and their bullshit appeals to pathos, and insufficient penalties for minors.
Thankyou for writing this post, basically it sums up the current attitudes that persist in our society today. Through the internet, values, particularly amongst young men are being driven down, and the courts are not doing anything to combat this fact.
I lay out a thorough analysis of the argument that disagrees with the premises proposed here: http://fauxpolitics.tumblr.com/post/46003210051/the-believer-logger-i-am-not-your-wife-sister-or
Thank you for posting your reply. As a woman who has been raped I honestly have the same beliefs on this topic as you. I use the phrases, what if it was you? what if it was your best friend? etc… If you are afraid of using genderizing terms you can use don’t have to. Men can get raped too, although, in our gender culture it is easier to imagine a woman.
I’m sick of women who stand up and say this is what we should do for rape victims, when they have no idea what it means to be a rape victim.
I find myself on the fence with your argument. I believe arguing from relationships does serve a purpose if you’re trying to elicit some compassion or remorse from an otherwise unmoved perpetrator. But it does lack strength by tying value of the woman to her relationships to men. All in all, you’re right, there’s no reason why the average person should have to hear “she could be your wife, your daughter, your sister, your mother” in order to think “It is unacceptable for someone to rape a woman.” We should be past that. Some of us aren’t, sadly, so maybe the relationship argument is a stepping-stone to get to the point where we can all realize that no one should ever have to undergo such abuse.
I am a Person. I refuse to be dismissed because of my gender. I have been married 45 years to a man who understands this. We raised three sons, I hope I got my message across. Unfortunately, there are females out there who take advantage of being married. If you are not adult, and have no self respect. Don’t get married. Get yourself together first. Marriage is an equal partnership. You just have to explain that before you get married. A real man does not have to demean or injure his wife to have a relationship. Respect yourself first, then others. As MAJOR Margaret Houlahan in
M*A*S*H said –
“What I want is simple respect. Simple respect. I expect nothing more, and will accept nothing less”
I see what both sides are saying here. For example- read this article. http://www.cracked.com/article_14990_what-monkeysphere.html For most people, a rape victim in the news is out of their monkeysphere. Relate to people in monkeysphere= elicit understanding. There is some weight to the idea.
That being said, the world on a whole needs a little critical thinking here. Feminists on blogs do not, generally speaking, sit around all day and find things to be pissy about. They are just people like you and me, who see a problem, and are brainstorming ways to fix it. Quite frankly it’s a good deal more than everyone else sitting around with their “the rapes were awful! Gosh darn, rabble rabbble rabble.” is doing to help the cause they allegedly “care about as much as the next person”. And yes- I did say rapeS, plural, one of the points of this case that has been severely under reported.
Does the fact that the idea of teaching people NOT to rape- instead of teaching them how to avoid rape, is a relatively new concept give you any more bearing on how dire this situation is? Seriously. Think it over. Because I used to be on the other side of the fence, until I took a moment to actually think about that.
There is a problem. And people need to start opening their minds to new ideas before they strike them down as ramblings of angry feminists with nothing better to do. The idea that I am not just a daughter or wife or sister is something that resonates with me. Why? Because I’ve never really been told otherwise. Does that mean that I take any less joy/fulfillment from the relationships I have? Nope. Sure don’t. Is it a little peculiar at the very least that this is a new concept to me and I’m 22 years old? I would say so.
Thank you internet. You just spurred me to finally stop being worried about people like you that I don’t know, and become a pissy feminist with a blog myself.
Feminists don’t need to sit around thinking of things to be pissy about. Things to be pissy about tend to march up and bite us on the ass unbidden.
Another comment as well:
This isn’t meant to be a using women as possessions. What it is attempting to do is create an empathy for the sufferers and their families, instead of sympathy. It creates a deeper emotion, which can then cause greater attention towards, and investment in, the message.
Obama uses this as well because he is representing the office of the USA. He isn’t saying that these are his binders of women, as Romney did; he is saying that these are our people, with “ours” meaning people like us with similar identity and part of our group, not as our possessions. Slaves were thought of as possessions and referred to as “them” and “they”, not “ours”.
I do agree that their actions were despicable and I am grossly appalled by the sentencing. I have experienced a similar situations and know the struggles that accompany it. However, I feel that the more we argue points which are intended to increase emotional investment in a topic, the more time we’re wasting acting to put situations such as this right.
A girl was grossly, publicly raped. Some people are using one of the most notoriously effective empathy-provokers, the “Imagine if she was” saying, and your gripe here is that it fails to sufficiently recognize you as an independent person? I think the proper turn of phrase here is “Get over yourself.”
It’s been well-covered in response that nothing about being a daughter says “Daughter of a man,” nothing about being a mother says “Mother to a man,” or any of the relationship or object possession problems you’ve invented with the saying. It simply says “Use a little empathy here for a person who is more than a statistic or demographic.”
Not that there’s any lack of crass, gross comments precipitated by the Steubenville case, but this “Me, me, me” approach definitely counts as one of them.
This. Thank you.
A girl was grossly, publicly raped. Why do people need to refer to a hypothetical relationship in order to MAKE PEOPLE GIVE A DAMN? I didn’t need to think “what if she was my sister?” to be horrified by what happened to her.
It’s true that the statement doesn’t need to be read as defining her relationship to men. But consider that, in all the sympathetic coverage of the victim’s rapists, the focus was on what bright futures they had, how they were part of a team that was the pride of Steubenville–CNN even made the comment about the tears of one of them made people remember he “was just a 16 year old boy.” An individual, not someone’s brother, father, or son.
But the girl has to be compared to a daughter, a mother, a sister? It’s gross.
THIS. Thank you.
Reblogged this on Leaky Blather and commented:
Everyone, both men and women, needs to read this. It might be excessively rant-y, but that’s the part that makes it worth reading; she’s passionate AND she knows what she’s talking about. You go, girl.
Yeah! Damn straight. I say teach the men too! Our culture and society has some deep seeded, insidious, objectification (power) issues that are systemic and poisonous, colonialist and barbaric. You can hear it in the way we use language and see it in our so-called “entertainment” industry. Terrible modes of behavior. Adults behaving poorly. It’s sickening how and what we are unwittingly acculturated to, these outdated sentiments and modi operendi. Misogyny, racism, classicism and violence are buried so deep they’ve been normalized. Great blog.
Crappy behavior is cheap entertainment. It’s sad that very few filmmakers seem to be able to rise above this. Our society is becoming little more than an ugly “reality show.”
Thank you for this post, we need to hear, remember, and act on changing the way that society treats women. I think that It will take a long time to change because it’s so engrained in our mindset and lifestyle but I know that the day will come. We’ve come a long way and we’ve got a long way to go. We need to have these conversations so that we can evaluate where we are and know what we need to change.
Sad and infuriating that we must think like this in 2013…sexual exploitation is acceptable in our society among many…athletic ability is overrated and viewed as “honor”…sickening that the parents of these perpetrators haven’t condemned their sons’ actions…apple doesn’t fall far from the tree perhaps…sad too that no one helped the victim, simply because they could and should have!
You said it. I reblogged on onlythebestofintentions@wordpress.com
As a woman that has raised three sons and a daughter, I am constantly outraged at the way this specific incident has been reported in the popular media. It has gone on forever though. When I was a teen some girls from my high school were assaulted and they were blamed. In college, the frat boys and jocks thought it was something to laugh about. We are all people and deserve to be treated as such.
Finally. Thank you.
Shout it.
Not sure if this has been brought up in the many comments but we need, also, to teach young men not to rape. Not just tell women they are a whole being.
Look, I’m all for condemning those who condone or try to apologize for rape; but attacking those who are on your side??? The “imagine if…” device is meant to elicit empathy, and it just so happens that a good way to do this is to ask others to imagine if something similar happened to a loved one of theirs. What if the shoe was on the other foot: a young man is murdered and an anti-violence advocate asks the audience to “imagine if he was your son, your brother, etc.” Is that somehow offensive as well?
It’s about empathy. Everyone is making the point that we need to teach men not to rape, as opposed to teaching women how to avoid rape. But don’t we need both? A world where people (not just men) are successfully taught enough empathy to not sexually assault anyone would be a great place to live, but unfortunately we’re not there yet. It’s not simply that people (men and boys in particular) are taught that rape is okay; it’s that they’re brought up to lack empathy of any kind and that being violent–whether sexually or not, towards women as well as towards other men–makes you more of a man. We live in a culture of not only rape, but of violence, callousness, greed, and selfishness more generally. The shift that has to happen is a huge one, and involves a lot more than just “teaching men not to rape.”
I have to agree with you. When people use violence as a way to hurt and/or utilize power and control over another human being, there is a disconnect. People who use the mother/sister/daughter argument are attempting, in whatever way possible to bridge the gap of that disconnect and elicit an empathetic response. Important to blame the perpetrator, not the victim and not those people who are offering support themselves. This is not a possession issue, this is a “try to get someone to actually give a damn about someone else” issue. thank you for your response.
“Please don’t…” isn’t an attack. It’s a polite request.
I completely understand the argument here. It’s the point that the whole “wives, sisters, and daughters” metaphor needs to be used at all so that people understand. Some people honestly can’t understand something like this unless it’s presented with that perspective. But why? The answer is simple: There are some people who honestly don’t believe that men and women are not equal as human beings. To them, men and women aren’t just simply different genders, but different species altogether.
This is not going to be the most popular thing on this list of comments, but…a big part of this problem is feminists and their demands on men in the last 100 years. Men NEED respect, and when they are taught to have integrity they will behave in a way that deserves respect. Yes, some of those men took that to a bad extreme, but most of them took it seriously that part of deserving respect meant valuing and protecting women. Don’t sit there as a feminist and say its not right for men to open doors for you, it’s not right for them to treat you with deference as a woman, and turn around and expect them to protect you and treat you with deference.
Do not misread this; I’m not defending the rapists. Their actions were heinous, and that judge should be removed from his position for that ridiculous slap on the wrist. The media should be ashamed of themselves for showing those boys such regard. But make no mistake–if we as a society want our men to be REAL MEN, women need to start backing down from this militant stand against men being REAL MEN.
What does being a “real man” mean, I wonder?
A more important question than you know.
The problem is, in the attempt to obtain equality we have kind of lost
firm societal roles. At one time, those roles were firmly established, now
they are not but there are still unspoken expectations that men are supposed
to magically know which is very, very frustrating.
A “real man” would embody those masculine elements that other men admire.
And, as a corollary, is admired by feminine heterosexual women.
I can say one thing with surety, real men don’t rape.
” Don’t sit there as a feminist and say its not right for men to open doors for you, it’s not right for them to treat you with deference as a woman, and turn around and expect them to protect you and treat you with deference.”
You know, as a feminist I have no problem with people opening doors for me; I regularly open doors for other people too. It’s polite, like offering someone a cookie rather than shoving them all in your own face. But I have a GREAT BIG HONKING problem with the occasional bloke of my acquaintance who then plays the “you expect men to open doors for you, but then you also want equal pay/whatever” card, because hell no, I am not giving away my human rights in just because I’m willing to graciously accept the courtesy of an opened door.
Lady, if giving up my human rights, and agreeing to be the demure, ladylike Angel of the Hearth beloved by Victorian writers would, in fact, magically guarantee my protection from rape and abuse, then maybe I’d consider that an acceptable exchange; but here’s the thing: men have been raping and abusing women and children for millennia. Way back before women could vote, before the church acknowledged that we might have souls, before the power of the patriarchal order was IN ANY WAY being questioned, “promising” young men were raping and abusing women. Crack open any history book or religious text and educate yourself on the behaviour of men who don’t have to worry tbeir pretty little pre-twentieth century heads about those nasty feminists.
Lady, HUMANS need respect, whether men or women, gay or straight, rich or poor, black or white or any shade in between. Real men are not threatened by the discovery that humans come in all shapes, sizes, colours, genders and sexual orientations. They do not need to demean others in order to feel good about themselves. They do not need to pretend that i am incapable of opening a door in order to feel empowered and valuable members of society, or in order to accept that rape is not okay.
I absolutely love your reply. thank you for writing it.
Amen, Nic. Too right.
You may not think you are defending the rapists, but by defending the essentialist and Patriarchal myth that somewhere there is a “REAL MAN” who would respect and not rape women only if ” women … start backing down from this militant stand against men being REAL MEN” you are engaging in a not too sophisticated version of blaming the victim. I can just hear a rapists defense: She didn’t respect me for being a real man, so I raped her.” Of course it is hard to show respect for anybody when you have passed out.
Robin: Yes, exactly what I was thinking.
Lambslw: This argument that you are making is exactly the problem. Your argument leads to: women are at fault for men raping them. This is a perfect example of rape culture.
Right on. Real men respect and don’t rape women, period. They also don’t get pissy about not being treated as the “big strong manly man” by those rotten femi-nazis, or whatever other epithet they may use about women who demand to be treated with respect. Real men respect other PEOPLE, and act like decent citizens rather than needing someone to stroke their ego.
You’re claim to not be defending the rapists is shown to be false by your blame the victim mentality: “if we as a society want our men to be REAL MEN, women need to start backing down from this militant stand against men being REAL MEN.” There is no such thing as a “REAL MAN,” although this idea is what turns boys into creeps, and men into rapists.
Your comment is victim blaming and offensive. Now women who believe that they should be treated equally to men as human beings are responsible for rape? I am absolutely appalled! I have been a child sexual assault counselor for 22 years. So….somehow are feminists responsible for all the little girls under 18 who get raped? One out of 3 or one out of 4 depending on which data you read. Please do take a sexual assault education course and do take a course on feminist principles and theory and then…. please rewrite the comment with your new found enlightenment.
Excuse me. Am I reading correctly that you are saying between 25% and 33% of all girls under the age 18 have been raped? This figure, if accurate, boggles the mind and I think
if it was that high we would be hearing more about it.
The only figure I can recall is that 1 out of 6 women will be assaulted in their life time.
Since this would include rapes, in addition to what is often very broadly defined as assault
(getting smacked on the butt is crude but should not be lumped with rape as that dilutes the term) then something is out of whack.
Please provide links to reliable sources like medical journals that explain what they are
defining as rape as well as provide peer review data to back it up.
Even one rape is too many and you should not muddy the water with information that is
inaccurate since that cause people to reject dealing with issue along the lines of
“The boy who cried wolf”. We want the wolves stopped.
Please refer to http://www.rainn.org/statistics for rape statistics.
15% of sexual assault and rape victims are under age 12.
29% are age 12-17.
44% are under age 18.3
80% are under age 30.3
12-34 are the highest risk years.
Girls ages 16-19 are 4 times more likely than the general population to be victims of rape, attempted rape, or sexual assault.
7% of girls in grades 5-8 and 12% of girls in grades 9-12 said they had been sexually abused.
3% of boys grades 5-8 and 5% of boys in grades 9-12 said they had been sexually abused.
In 1995, local child protection service agencies identified 126,000 children who were victims of either substantiated or indicated sexual abuse.
Of these, 75% were girls.
Nearly 30% of child victims were between the age of 4 and 7.
93% of juvenile sexual assault victims know their attacker.
34.2% of attackers were family members.
58.7% were acquaintances.
Only 7% of the perpetrators were strangers to the victim.
Unfortunately, that site does not define what they are terming as sexual assault.
I’ve seen some surveys that include yelling. In fact, the Violence Against Women Act includes a provision outlawing yelling.
The site you mention also states that rape has dropped by 60% since 1993.
Regarding the difference between sexual assault and rape, there may be legal ones depending on which state is legaly defining the sexual assault crimes, but there really is little differnece especially to the survivor of the crime. Some differentiate in terms of rape being unconsented penetration of any orifice with a body part or any object, but unconsented sexual contact of any kind is sexual assualt, including exposing one’s genitals as it also is a criminal act of unconsented sexual contact, which will result in havign to register as a sex offender.
You wonder why we don’t hear more about rape if it is a prevalent as the statistics report? easy to explain. For one thing, society blames women for it, so the victim feels shamed. Often women though they will acknowledge the sexual assault to friends, counselors, in surveys, they will not report the crime itself.
If you are robbed the police come to your home and investigate clues in your home. If you are sexually assaulted someone (a sexual assault nurse examiner, if you are so lucky to have one in your area) has to literally comb your body for evidence. Every thing that must be done to collect evidence including the retelling of the incident can be cause for reliving the trauma.
But the fear that you will be blamed, told you must have been doing something to cause the crime, is a powerful deterrent to reporting the crime. Girls and women know other girls and women to whom this has happend. It makes me wonder if you are feigning ignorance of all this that you even ask. But if you really care and don’t know it reveals the lack of public knowledge.
Rape is a four letter word that people don’t want to hear or talk about. I am sure for journalists its not an easy one to report on. Survivors don’t want to relive it,just get past it. But it is a social sickness that is epidemic and needs much more public discussion. Its only been in the last couple of decades that sexual offenders have had to register as such.
A man I once thought a friend told me that if a woman kissed him that was her consent to have sex with him. If women were going to arouse him then they needed to follow thru. I was traumatized by him just telling me that. I know of another case where a man testified in court that his 14 year old step-daughter seduced him. This is more often the case than not that the victim is not believed, found at fault, denigrated by her peers even family members for causing the rapist to get in trouble.
That is why we need to be very careful about what our words convey about women so that men don’t get these ideas and hold firmly to them. Yes, men in paticular need to figure out what about their culture leads males to think they are entitled and that other human beings are less than them. It is true that some mothers, having been poorly socialized themselves about their own worth, degrade other women. But since men, especially men in sports and entertainment are the spotlighted models for most males, they need to step up and speak out loud and often.
Women have been on the forefront of creating rape awareness and making sure treatment for the trauma of sexual assault is availbable. But the cultural attitude of superiority and entitlement which perceives children, women, vulnerable men, and other-abled as being less than…perhaps that can only be stopped by other men consciously making a concerted effort.
With respect, it’s more than just a legal difference.
Someone exposing themselves is not the same as rape.
Someone grabbing a butt is not the same as rape.
A man’s mere statement, as idiotic as it is, is not as traumatic as rape.
Rape is too serious a crime to dilute with the above behavior.
As a point of fact, the man’s statement is not even a crime, its just a display
of ignorance and a warning for you to never, ever, kiss him.
Part of my concern is the behavior I’ve observed in women.
Much like men, there are women that go to the bar to get laid.
I personally do not choose to indulge in such behavior, but I don’t condemn it.
I’m not completely sure how one can ensure that an inebriated man does not
step over the line with the equally inebriated woman.
Worse, what happens if the next morning the woman decides that she could not have given consent to “this” guy and decides it must have been rape. I’m not saying that it wasn’t rape, I just don’t know what needs to be done here. There is a difference between
people wearing their “beer goggles” and making a poor choice and someone not making
a choice at all. The later being rape, the former would generally not be.
Things would be much simpler if people only had sex with people they are in a relationship
with and are better able to know that consent would not be forthcoming without the alcohol
so better to treat it as a no just to be safe. That said, not having sex with a woman who
wants you too is a somewhat crushing ego blow.
I’m sure that if men just refused to have sex with women that have had any drinks
at all that women would become quite irate because then you are “judging” them for
“their” choices.
Richard, I like wolves. they are one of the most misunderstood and maligned animals on earth when there’s never been a reason for it. Do some reading. I teach this stuff. I am a domestic violence and sexual assault educator. Medical journals do not compile sociological data. Sometimes sociological data is mentioned in an article and quoted but there are numerous studies out there citing the breathtaking incident of sexual violence on our children including the Federal Bureau of Investigation Statistics website. You mention 1 out of 6 girls. That data is old, but even if it was the most current data we have, are you saying that number is ok with you because it’s not one out of 3 or 4? You backtrack later in your argument stating even one rape is too much. I am certainly glad for you that your recognize that. It is offensive you speak about a smack on the but being lumped in with sexual assault. Your comments make you look ignorant. I don’t even want to waste my time responding to you. Do some reading. Take a course and get back to me so we can have an intelligent conversation. Rape is not caused by feminists. it is caused by a culture that normalizes, accepts and even glorifies violence against women. Rape is not about sex. it is about violence. When you can assume a smack on the butt is lumped in with the data on sexual assault, you don’t have a clue and are speaking from a place of your own prejudice and ignorance.
I know, I wasn’t able to either. I had to respond to my own post. It was weird! thank you for reaching out to me.
Hear, hear! Your reply made me laugh. I am going to stop reading his posts too because he appears to be deliberately antagonizing people who have been responding to him. It’s not worth it. Ignorance is an easy thing. Wisdom is difficult and comes at a price because it takes the inner fortitude and self awareness to take a step back and look at oneself critically admitting that you don’t know what you don’t know. the price is well worth it though as awareness becomes expanded. it is from this place that change is affected. And, yes, it is very healing, (great choice of words!) to hear your thoughts echoed back. thank you.
A lot of women in my circle of friends are posting personal statements on Facebook (and other media) stating, “Yes, I am a rape survivor”, along with a paragraph or so about the effects of the assault. The number of them kind of shocks even me (and I am well-versed in the statistics for rape), so I’m certain it’s a shocking wake-up call to the clueless wonders out there that thinks most rape is buyers’ remorse.
I’ve been open about my assault and subsequent struggles with PTSD on my page. I suspect that if every woman who has been through a sexual assault could do the same, it would make a huge impact. I don’t expect every survivor to be able to do so, but the more of us that can and do helps open eyes.
Statistics for rape: http://www.rainn.org/statistics
You are interpreting through the filters of your experience. This is normal. While it would take some time, please review the comments I’ve made to this post. I don’t waver or backtrack, that is your interpretation. No rape is acceptable. Teaching women how to avoid rape does not mean we think they are responsible for it, simply that we do not want
them to be raped. Period.
My thing is numbers which is natural as a computer programmer. Liking wolves has absolutely nothing to do with this subject. The story is an old fable meant to demonstrate the dangers in not being truthful.
You have decided to attack me. Likely because it is safe to do so. Ironic, isn’t it.
Nowhere do I say rape is caused by “feminists”. I add quotes because the term is no often misused. I happen to be a feminist in that I believe in equal rights and responsibilities for both genders. I remember women rallying against the ERA because they would then be subject to the draft.
As to statistics, again, numbers are my thing and I have indeed seen such things included. Why? Because in fact LEGALLY, depending on intent, a smack on the butt IS
sexual assault. Something you should know given your stated profession. Ask someone who enforces the laws. In the recently passed revision violence against women act, YELLING at your spouse is treated as assault. A stupid move on their part because it means that the supreme court will throw that out and possibly things that might otherwise stay and benefit people.
For a profession that requires empathy and understanding, you have a surprising lack of both.
The way you treat other people is a reflection on YOU.
Now you are blaming me in much the way you say society is blaming the victims.
You do not like the comparison. Too bad. Look in the mirror and judge yourself
by the same standards you judge others. That you come up wanting is on you.
Good night.
Richard, your comment doesn’t even make sense. Truth is, this young person is right on the money as is the other writer who suggested therapy. You are misguided and speaking from a place if ignorance and self righteousness that makes you part of the problem. You have a number of people who obviously have experience in the field telling you to take a step back and listen to what you are saying. i wasn’t going to further respond to you as it is a waste of precious time that I don’t have, but the manner in which you are attacking me and the other writers shows a lack of self awareness that is dumbfounding. It takes courage and is indicative of a big person when they can admit they have more to learn on an issue rather than proselytizing from a place of pompous arrogance. Life is a journey Richard, the writers responding to you just might have something valuable to teach you if you were open to hearing and learning the information.
Oh my goodness! You are just extraordinary. Thank you so much! I just stopped responding but it was so very, very nice to see this post.
Richard: “Worse, what happens if the next morning the woman decides that she could not have given consent to “this” guy and decides it must have been rape.”
That’s psychosis. To assume women to be psychotic because you are afraid of being accused is paranoia. Both of these things can be helped with treatment.
Laws around inebriation and sex are about being in a position to be unable to give consent, not about being unable to tell if consent was a bad idea. If he’s able to “have sex,” he’s able to determine whether or not there is valid consent. Period.
“Things would be much simpler if people only had sex with people they are in a relationship with.”
How about we leave that to the people we’re discussing? Just as you decided for yourself what behaviour you wouldn’t “indulge” in, allow others to decide what legal behaviours they will indulge in.
“Teaching women how to avoid rape does not mean we think they are responsible for it, simply that we do not want
them to be raped. Period.”
Actually, no “period,” rather “semi-colon.” When there are strategies that “should” be in place in order to avoid an assault, you’re faulted for not having them in place. Even simple advice like, “Keep your drink covered” or “Don’t leave your drink alone” is victim-blaming in nature; it doesn’t simply use unaccountable language, it places all accountability onto the wrong person. If instead we say things like, “Don’t drug anyone’s drink,” we’re letting people on both sides of the equation know this happens (people can take whatever precautions they think are necessary) and at the same time we put the onus on the perpetrator to not perpetrate. In the meantime, we’re letting everyone know this sort of behaviour is just unacceptable, both morally and legally. Currently, the focus is on not letting someone drug your drink rather than on not tolerating the drugging behaviour or person.
The onus IS on the person doing the wrong doing. To not educate someone on how to avoid a problem that we know exists is immoral. To say that someone should not have
to do something is just wishful thinking. Stop saying it is blaming the victim, what it is, is hopefully preventing them from becoming a victim and maybe catching the scum that are attempting to do the wrong doing. We have jails because people break laws. Police have guns because the bad guys have guns.
We already say “Don’t drug anyone’s drink” by having laws with severe penalties and the laws are still getting broken. If we knew who was going to break the law, then we could
watch them and act to stop them.
“To assume women to be psychotic because you are afraid of being accused is paranoia”
It’s not paranoia when you see/hear such things happen. I don’t need “treatment” so that
I can go around and sleep with random women. I don’t see limiting my activities to women
I’m in a relationship as a problem that needs solving.
If he’s able to “have sex,” he’s able to determine whether or not there is valid consent.
In a word. Crap. I’ve seen guys go up to people and start fights that they never would
if they were sober. People that drink can make incredibly poor choices, assuming that
these are even real choices. A good reason to NOT drink to excess to say the least.
We hold people responsible for the actions they perform not just because of those actions, but in the hope of halting the chain of events much earlier.
Also, Richard, I feel it’s necessary to define “assault” for you. It’s not the physical act of violence; that’s a lay-person’s incorrect assumptive definition. Assault is causing a reasonable apprehension of violence. So, really, telling someone you plan to hurt them is assault. Yelling, if it causes a reasonable apprehension of violence, is assault.
Very, very well stated. Right on the money. Thank you so much for your response. It was really nice to read. I just stopped responding to Richard since it just seemed a lost cause, but had i continued, i would have done what I could to explain what you have so accurately put into words!
Richard: “Stop saying it is blaming the victim”
I will if you’ll stop blaming the victim.
“We have jails because people break laws. Police have guns because the bad guys have guns.”
These are responses to crime, not methods of stopping them, so what’s your point?
“We already say “Don’t drug anyone’s drink” by having laws with severe penalties and the laws are still getting broken. If we knew who was going to break the law, then we could watch them and act to stop them.”
We know who is breaking the law. Stopping them is what we aim to do with targeted education on sexual assault and consent. Why do you have a problem with that? Why is it an issue for you to be told, “Don’t be a rapist” instead of us saying to others, “Don’t get raped?”
“It’s not paranoia when you see/hear such things happen.”
The number of false accusations of sexual assault is extremely low. The latest stats in North America (which we have evidence may be too high) are between 2% and 8%, while in the UK a recent study says 0.3% – so if you’re seeing and hearing “such things” there’s a good chance you’re dismissing a valid complaint in favour of sticking with your friends. Bros before hoes, Richard?
‘I don’t need “treatment” so that I can go around and sleep with random women. I don’t see limiting my activities to women
I’m in a relationship as a problem that needs solving.”
I didn’t say you should seek treatment in order to sleep around; I was merely speaking to your level of comfort. Seriously, though, look where you leapt to with that conclusion. You’ve got some very old-fashioned, puritanical views that are colouring your ability to think rationally about consent education.
” ‘If he’s able to “have sex,” he’s able to determine whether or not there is valid consent.’ In a word. Crap. I’ve seen guys go up to people and start fights that they never would if they were sober.”
Now you’re talking. First off, the guy who drinks and picks a fight is an asshole. He drinks and picks fights, after all. He doesn’t change into Mr. Hyde when he’s drinking, he’s always Mr. Hyde; the alcohol is an excuse. Nowhere along the way, though, does he forget he’s picking a fight. Just as he might get into a car when he’s drunk and is still responsible, he’s expected to be responsible for his behaviour that will affect other people. Let’s warn women who drink about hangovers, about liver disease, about alcohol poisoning, as those are natural consequences of drinking. Rape is not a natural consequence of anything other than being in the vicinity of a rapist, and that’s not something she can control. But he can.
To stop the crime you need to watch people and be AWARE that some of them are up to no good. You keep talking about targeted education as if bad guys care. Bad guys care about getting punished, not their victims.
And I don’t say “Don’t get raped”, that would imply that is was their choice to have it
happen. How many guys don’t know that its wrong to rape?
And no, it’s Bros before hos, she RECANTED, he got her on tape, and is now out of
prison. A small percentage of people get in car accidents every day. I’m still going to
wear my seat belt and be aware of my surroundings.
I don’t consider myself puritanical. I do not wish to impose my standards on others.
I don’t drink, smoke, or use illegal drugs. As long as you actions don’t impact on me
or innocent 3rd parties, I really don’t care.
As to the “Mr. Hyde” I’m not talking about him assaulting an equal, I’m talking about him
attacking a person who is going to kick his butt (to put it politely).
“Let’s warn women who drink about hangovers, about liver disease, about alcohol poisoning, as those are natural consequences of drinking.” Please do. I think they
do that during health classes.
“Rape is not a natural consequence of anything other than being in the vicinity of a rapist, and that’s not something she can control. But he can.”
In here is the crux of the problem. You see, while she cannot eliminate the odds of ever
being in the vicinity of a rapist, there are logical things that CAN and should be done.
Choosing to not do it because you should not “have” to is as stupid as not wearing a
seat belt because the idiot on the road should not be driving drunk.
The fact that you refuse to accept this just boggles the mind.
Hear! Hear! Well said!
Richard, “Now you are blaming me in much the way you say society is blaming the victims. You do not like the comparison. Too bad. Look in the mirror and judge yourself by the same standards you judge others. That you come up wanting is on you.”
No, Richard, it is not victim-blaming to say to someone they’ve got it wrong. It’s not victim-blaming when someone actually seeks out a discussion and then gets met with resistance to their ideas. The standards others are using here are simple ones, and I doubt any of us are fearful of the same standards being used on us – we simply say, “Obey the law. Treat others as you wish to be treated. Recognize women are human beings deserving of their autonomy.” None of us says you should try to control other people by controlling yourself, which is what your “advice” amounts to.
Another excellent response! Thank you for posting it!
Richard, “To stop the crime you need to watch people and be AWARE that some of them are up to no good.”
No. Not even close. We cannot – and shouldn’t be expected to -always be aware. That would lead to hyper-vigilance syndrome. Know who suffers from hyper-vigilance syndrome at a disproportionate rate? Women. That’s because women are most often the primary, secondary, and tertiary victims of sexual assault. Who do you think should have that hyper-vigilance? Perpetrators. But they don’t. We need to focus on them for a while.
“You keep talking about targeted education as if bad guys care. Bad guys care about getting punished, not their victims.”
No, I keep talking about it like they should care. Know how to make them care? Take away their hiding spaces. Know where they hide? Behind rhetoric like yours. They’re using you, Richard. They’ve got you believing alcohol gets a woman/girl raped when it’s really the rapist who does that.
“And I don’t say “Don’t get raped”, that would imply that is was their choice to have it happen. How many guys don’t know that its wrong to rape?”
You know what most rapists have in common? They don’t think what they’re doing is really wrong. They think that, because people excuse their actions with “Women shouldn’t drink to excess,” they’ve been exonerated for what they’re going to do. They think that, because men laugh at jokes about rape, they’re surrounded by other rapists. They believe whole-heartedly, because you put the responsibility on her, that if she doesn’t stop him she must’ve wanted it. Stop supporting rapists, Richard. I know you don’t mean to, but intent isn’t magical.
“she RECANTED, he got her on tape, and is now out of
prison.”
OH! You have an anecdote! that’s different. Still doesn’t mean she wasn’t raped. Unfortunately, victims will recant. I haven’t a clue what the story is in this case, but you’re judging a lot of other people based on your one-time, subjective experience. That’s bad science, Richard. Read some studies.
“A small percentage of people get in car accidents every day. I’m still going to wear my seat belt and be aware of my surroundings.”
I’m glad! So, what seat belt has been designed for women to wear in case they are targeted by a rapist? Rape, by the way, is something people choose to do to another person, not an accident. You’re really not very good at metaphors, are you?
I don’t consider myself puritanical. I do not wish to impose my standards on others. I don’t drink, smoke, or use illegal drugs.
Okay, you’re not puritanical but I’ve now been subjected to a list of your “don’ts.” That’s not very convincing. Either way, I don’t judge you your choices. Why are you judging others theirs?
As long as you actions don’t impact on me or innocent 3rd parties, I really don’t care.
Except in the case of rape victims. Those people should do something different.
As to the “Mr. Hyde” I’m not talking about him assaulting an equal, I’m talking about him attacking a person who is going to kick his butt (to put it politely).
Whether he gets his ass kicked or not isn’t the point. Him getting drunk and deciding he has an excuse to attack another is the point.
“Let’s warn women who drink about hangovers, about liver disease, about alcohol poisoning, as those are natural consequences of drinking.” Please do. I think they do that during health classes.
Great. So then you’ll stop telling women about the dangers of alcohol because you know they’re learning all about it in health class. Awesome. Thanks.
“[…] while she cannot eliminate the odds of ever being in the vicinity of a rapist, there are logical things that CAN and should be done.”
I knew it was too much to ask.
“Choosing to not do it because you should not “have” to is as stupid as not wearing a seat belt because the idiot on the road should not be driving drunk.”
No. Again, wearing a seatbelt isn’t the same thing. Wearing a seatbelt is to apply a passive protective device; you put it on, and whether you think about it or not, it does its job. You’re asking people to not stop thinking about it. You’re asking people to never let their guards down. To never presume to be safe. That’s bullshit, privileged, gendered advice. You don’t have to think that way. Your threat level -and therefor the risk you assume- is just not that high.
“The fact that you refuse to accept this just boggles the mind.”
My thoughts, exactly.
What program do you work for? You do an excellent job of putting these issues down. I would like to use some of this when I do the trainings for domestic violence and sexual assault for my third year Ob medical students. May I have your permission to quote some of what you wrote during my trainings?
Sorry, Gaia – I’m just figuring out how the new comments feature works on my dashboard.
Absolutely! Feel free to use what you will. If you need anything further, don’t hesitate to contact us through our blog. We are thebestdefenseprogram.wordpress.com I would love to hear how you reference us and how things go for you if you do!
I will!!!!!!!!! I am so glad to have made contact with you! I will go to your blog at some point today. running GTA classes for NPs but I will reach out to you on your blog if not today, then tomorrow! This is my Pollyanna coming through but something wonderful always comes from something crappy. The interactions with Richard were frustrating and then i found you and this other extraordinary person who I would like to reach out to as well. Keep rocking on!
Gaia1012, was that directed to me? You may absolutely use whatever you find helpful. We are The Best Defense Program, located in Manitoba, Canada. If you’re interested in contacting us about what we do, click on our name or image and you should end up at our blog – there you’ll find a means of contact. We’re always interested in helping out!
Thanks for your support and kind words!
yes, it was directed at you! I knew you worked with a program due to the knowledge you have on the subject and the way you were able to put ideas out there. I run trainings for third year medical students going through OB rotation and the way you have responded to Richard and addressed some of his misguided remarks I thought would be an excellent way to raise awareness. Thank you for your permission and i will go to your site and look your organization up. Rock on! You are obviously doing some fantastic work!
Thanks very much! I look forward to hearing from you! Great to have allies and get the positive reinforcement we all need.
One more thing! Programs here in the states should take a look at Manitoba. I know there’s an actor there who runs an outreach program for homeless people and I know of several other good programs geared to provide assistance for people in need. Your program is obviously a really strong one. I would love to visit Manitoba some day!
Men need respect. I agree. Women need respect too.
I don’t have a problem with a man opening a door for me. I would just hope that he would also do so for another man, because if he wouldn’t, it implies that the little woman can’t open the big ole heavy door for herself, and that’s just insulting.
However, I never go off on a guy who has held the door open for me. I say thank you and move on. I’ve got bigger fish to fry than worrying about what his motivations are.
All people should value and protect each other. Women should be treated as people, not as helpless children who need men to protect them.
Real men are not threatened by women insisting on being treated as people rather than as some sort of inferior subspecies of human.
Thank you for this post. These words are exactly what needs to said.
I think you make some great points in your article. But, I must say that I think the reason why people use the slogan you abhor is because while a woman may not be someone’s wife or someone’s sister, she IS someone’s daughter. There is no such thing as a woman who is not a daughter, because the act of being conceived and born gave her a biological mother (and father). Furthermore, why must the saying “your mother, your wife, your sister” automatically imply a woman as a possession, and more to the point, a “male possession?” I for one am a woman. I am also a daughter, a mother, and a wife. Most importantly to this discussion, I am a sister to a woman who was raped. So to me, the old chant that used to be used to describe the prevalence of rape: “1 in 3, my mother, my sister, or me” is completely accurate. I know it’s not accurate for everyone, but it helps to get the point across that rape is common and rape has to STOP. I was a rape crisis counselor for about 6 years. Rapists are not the people these slogans are targeted at. I don’t believe a rapist will change or choose to not rape a woman (or man) because of an age-old slogan. These slogans are targeted at the rest of the world. The more people that hear them, the more that will (hopefully) become enraged at the idea that anyone should be raped. I think we as parents need to take it upon ourselves to teach our children that touching anyone in a private place without their consent is wrong and not to be tolerated. Perhaps this way we can create a new generation where this slogan won’t be needed anymore, because rape will hopefully one day be a thing of the past.
Great blog post! Having been a 1960’s feminist burning my bra, marching with Gloria Steinem and other notables, it has come to my attention lately how very little we have learned.
I have had it all, a great career, a long term relationship (44 years) with someone I love and 2 productive children. Some times I do wonder though, did the feminist movement of the 60’s unfair of the women of today, saying we can do/have it all!? There were so many days I worked my a– off, put in 16 hour days on everything/everybody but myself, just so I could prove I could do it all. (The superwoman syndrome).
Good luck you younger women out there. I hope you can learn from us, but hone the lessons to be more of equality and partnerships with other women and men. I hope we can value and respect all women and men, acknowledge and embrace our differences while respecting our similarities as humans.
Your post on the rape culture I totally agree with. I also wonder if this “rape culture” is additionally part of a bigger “no respect for human life” culture. Without getting on the soap box about the evils of the current political headlines (gun control and abortion are two of them), I do wonder what people are thinking. When did the Christian tenants of the Golden Rule get buried in our society? Again, not that you have to be Christian, but human respect, doing unto others as you would have them do unto you, etc., are lost and gone for some. Why would these young men rape this victim, think it was so funny or being such a conquest that it was okay to put it on social media? Why wouldn’t others who witnesses this crime help this girl? And… why wouldn’t our legal system punish these young men to the fullest extent of the law?
As one of my Women’s Studies instructors of the 60’s said, “Feminism is not a revolution, it is an evolution and it is moving da– slow.”
I think the important point, in the tragedy of these rapes, was stated by you at the beginning: They were perpetrated on teenagers, by teenagers. Any perceived sympathy for the rapists vs. the victims in the coverage of this event, however overblown, is rooted, I should hope, in the realization that ALL the parties involved are children, and they are all suffering now from forever ruined lives.
The boys who did the ruining, the rapists, will not get off as lightly as this rant suggests, either. Sexual assault follows the convicted for life, even after prison.
Thank you for saying what I have always said: Just because I was born a female does NOT make me someone’s possession. It’s insane that in 2013, women still are being categorized as “wives, mothers, daughters.” Really??.
of course rape is bad and wrong in every situation, but the whole “calling them a wife sister or daughter is victimizing her in a sexist way” thing is putting pieces together that aren’t there. Nobody said (or implied) that raping her was wrong because she is a daughter, sister, or wife, they were simply making it more relatable, the same way anti-war people say not to send our brothers, fathers, and husbands to war…. there not being sexist by saying its wrong to send them to war because they are a brother, father, or husband, it just makes it more relatable, According to this articles logic, anti war people would be saying men are only important when they are married to, have fathered a child, or have been mothered by other people. It says that men are only important because of who they belong to otherwise they are expendable in war. Literally all I am doing is changing man to woman and changing the social scenario, and now my logic is as sound as theres. Bottom line is that both are BS, and are making verbal inferences that aren’t there. Don’t know how cohesive this paragraph was, but there you have it.
Athough I agree with the contents of this post, I don’t have a problem with the ‘wives sisters daughters’ wording. Whatever works to further the conversation and enlighten. But what I DO have a problem with is the crass ‘fucking this’ and ‘fucking that’ in the wording. REALLY?! Fucking blah blah in an article about RAPE?? Come on, SHOW SOME CLASS!
Amen! It comes down to a fundamental chasm between the amount of respect for men and boys versus the respect (if any) there is for women and girls. It is global and it has to be addressed. Thank you for this. Perfectly said!
I disagree, and spell it out fully here: http://fauxpolitics.tumblr.com/post/46003210051/the-believer-logger-i-am-not-your-wife-sister-or
Liked your post. Included it here:
http://amazingwomenrock.com/11-rape-related-blog-posts-worth-reading
Thanks.
I understand this and think it’s well written but I don’t completely agree. Somehow I doubt many of the women who have been brutally raped are too concerned with being classified as a wife, daughter, or mother. I’d have to say that seems a trivial detail when the issue on the table is brutal rape. For me personally, you bet your ass I am my father’s daughter and as he is a ten year cancer survivor and the strongest, best man I know, I am honored to be identified as his daughter. I will gladly claim that title and don’t feel any less independent doing so.